Public Safety Committee on March 22nd, 2018

[Greta Bossenmaier]

Thank you, Minister.

I seem to always go back to history, but I think a little bit of history is important. For over 70 years, as the minister noted in his opening remarks, we have been in the business of protecting Canadians' most sensitive information.

Today, fast forward 70 years, we're now blocking on average every day over a billion malicious attempts to compromise government systems. We operate sophisticated cyber-defences on behalf of the Government of Canada on Government of Canada systems. That's our reality today.

We also provide advice and guidance and services to the public and to critical infrastructure owners about how best to defend themselves, everything from our top 10 actions that one should take to protect themselves in cyberspace to more detailed technical advice.

If a critical infrastructure owner were to request that CSE provide them with additional services to help protect them, for example when under attack, this proposed legislation would allow us to do that. The minister would have to designate the critical infrastructure owner as a system of importance to the Government of Canada. The critical system owner would have to make a written request to us. We would do it only at their request and if the minister had designated them as being critically important. It would allow us to use some of our sophisticated tools to help protect them. For example, if they were under attack from a malicious cyber-actor who was trying to steal their information or infiltrate their systems, this act would allow us to try to provide some of the sophisticated techniques and methods that we use to protect Canadians' information every day on behalf of the Government of Canada and to do that on behalf of critical infrastructure owners as well, for example.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

I was reading a report by The Citizen Lab that made a number of suggestions about CSE and Bill C-59. I've referred to it a few times along the way. One of them was to allow federal institutions to opt out of cybersecurity advice and monitoring if they want to.

If there were such an opt-out, what would be the impact on your ability to provide cyber-defence?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I think it's prudent, especially in this day and age. What I'm sensing from my travels and from discussions I've had is that agencies want better protection, but more importantly, Canadians expect that, when they are going to be doing business with an entity, they will actually have the right tools and expertise to move forward.

I think we're going down that path, but I think if it is their choice, each institution will have to make their own choice on that.

Greta.

[Greta Bossenmaier]

You're absolutely right, Minister. This very much is upon the request of a critical infrastructure owner. Again, we put out a lot of, I believe, really important information, advice, and guidance that can be used by citizens and by critical infrastructure owners, for example, to better protect their systems and their information, but it's up to them to take that on board. We have a lot of interest in using that, but in terms of the new legislation, it definitely would be at the request of a critical infrastructure owner.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Can I just add to this? One thing that is very important is that CSE has been involved behind the scenes in protecting Canadians in this manner, but it's only recently that the vice-chiefs have been very open, getting out their social media, making sure that Canadians understand what they need to do. I think this is the thing that's been very important. We are shifting the landscape as well, to demonstrate to Canadians that CSE is a phenomenal agency with the right expertise that's recognized by our Five Eyes partners as being top in the world. More importantly, we have Canadians protecting Canadians, so they can have tremendous confidence in what they do. The advice that's given is actually having an impact, especially the top 10 list.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Budget 2018, in fact, allocated $115 million for a Canadian centre for cybersecurity. How does that tie into what we're looking at right here when we're talking about Bill C-59 and CSE?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

This is about keeping up to date, with us as a government making sure that all our agencies have a place where they can go for the right expertise, and creating a cyber centre of excellence, at which you have the expertise of CSE to make sense of this for us. This is going to provide not only a one-stop shop that can allow agencies to come and Canadians to know how to deal with threats....

Greta, do you want to add something?

[Greta Bossenmaier]

Budget 2018 did propose a Canadian centre of excellence for cyber. It would be housed within CSE. It would bring together the operational components within the government of Canada that work on cybersecurity operations. Very much to the minister's point, it would provide a one-stop shop of expertise—to use that terminology—a place where the Government of Canada, Canadians, and Canadian infrastructure could go to get that trusted advice, guidance, and services.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister and your team, for being here today.

Minister, given your role within C-59 and as Minister of Defence, did you hold any meetings with your counterparts about national security or Bill C-59 on your tour of India?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

If you want to know about my trip to India, I was disappointed that I didn't get to visit the village where I was born.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

So you're not going to answer the question. Let me ask it a different way.

Bill C-59 requires you, as the Minister of Defence, to consult with Foreign Affairs on anything related to CSIS or CSE.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Could you repeat that?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Bill C-59 requires you, as the Minister of Defence, to have interactions and contact with Foreign Affairs on CSIS matters and CSE matters. Given the fact that the national security adviser was asked by the PMO to brief the press, I'm wondering whether you were consulted on that. If you were not, should we write into this bill that the national security adviser should not brief the press until he has first consulted you?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Minister, given my previous discussions with all members that we are here to discuss Bill C-59 and notwithstanding the cleverness with which Mr. Motz has phrased his question, I would encourage you, Minister, to answer the first part of the question, but as to any travels—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

It's getting more difficult to figure out what the different parts of the question are. If you could rephrase that Bill C-59 piece, I'd be happy to try to answer it for you.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Again, I'm going to ask the same question because, respectfully, Mr. Chair, this is related to Bill C-59.

It's related to your role as Minister of Defence and your role within Bill C-59. It has to do with Foreign Affairs. Given the fact that we have seen the national security adviser brief the press before he briefs you—and I take it by your non-answer that you were not consulted before he briefed the press—I'm wondering whether there should be some amendments to this legislation—because it doesn't provide us any direction on who the national security adviser should talk to or who he should consult before he does brief the press—to ensure that doesn't happen in the future.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

My responsibility as Minister of National Defence is national defence, the Canadian Armed Forces, and CSE.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's it. So you weren't consulted, then, when this particular...?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm giving you my answer in terms of what my responsibilities are.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's interesting.

Terrorism certainly is part of Bill C-59. Part of your responsibility as Minister of Defence, as well as the primary focus behind Bill C-59, is to protect Canadians.

You were at the event in India with Mr. Atwal. Did that not raise any alarm bells for you on national security issues?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When it comes to threats on a daily basis around the world, I look at making sure that, as Minister of National Defence, I have the right resources in the right place to make sure that we're able to interpret the various threats. That's what we'll continue to do. That's what Bill C-59 is about.

On this point—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Given that comment, Minister—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

This is how important it is.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Sorry, I have limited time.

Given the comment you just made, is it fair to suggest then that...? Being that you're responsible for national security issues, did you launch an investigation into what happened in India with the Atwal affair?