Public Safety Committee on May 10th, 2018

[John Ossowski]

I would refer you to the IRB in terms of the timing of where they are at for their hearings.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

My next question has to do with CSE, the Communications Security Establishment, whoever can answer that.

I see that in the budget there was a transfer for the cybersecurity authority to CSE, which is under Defence. Now, we all fully believe that there has to be a full investment in increasing our cybersecurity. In Bill C-74, in the budget estimates, you talk about employees from the Canadian Cyber Incident Response Centre also being transferred over to CSE, but there is still funding for cybersecurity within the Public Safety portfolio.

I'm curious to know whether that's a duplicate. If you're taking all that and moving it over to Defence, how are you able to justify both?

[Malcolm Brown]

There are two different activities. One is operational, and we are consolidating operational activities within the Canadian cyber centre. The relatively small amounts of funding remaining within the department are for policy activities, including ongoing policy work around cybersecurity, critical infrastructure and cybersecurity, etc.

These are two very specific, different functions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have five minutes, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the officials for being here.

I want to ask Mr. Brown about the national disaster mitigation program. There has been a sizeable increase for 2018-19 under the main estimates: $57.1 million has been allocated for national disaster mitigation. I think that is very important, very timely, and very welcome. Canadians see what's taking place in New Brunswick, for example.

I come from southwestern Ontario, specifically London. Our region was affected by serious flooding in the areas of Chatham and Brantford, so this is all welcome.

I want to ask about the extent to which climate change factors into the decision-making when it comes to policies or objectives such as this, because complex problems have complex causes. Twitter does not cause flooding. We heard from the other side that a complex issue has been caused by Twitter, apparently.

What we do know is that climate change has a very serious impact when it comes to the cause of these national disasters. In the United States, an independent estimate by the U.S. Government Accountability Office is that over the past 10 years, $350 billion has been spent on national disasters: hurricanes, wildfires, and floods. These are obviously linked to climate change in a major way. In the European Union, an EU analysis found that, between 1980 and 2016, there were 436 billion euros in economic losses as a result of climate-related disasters.

When we see a line item like this, $57.1 million—and I expect that this would either stay the same or probably increase in years to come—to what extent does climate change impact the decision-making here?

[Malcolm Brown]

The approach in terms of disaster response and mitigation generally is an all-hazards response. We factor in all elements of causality. Climate change and its effects in terms of major weather events, floods, the increasing severity of fires in the boreal forest, etc., are all factored in.

The NDMP's cost-shared program with the provinces suffered at the beginning from perhaps being undersubscribed. It is now the subject of a lot more interest from our provincial colleagues. We're in the midst of a round of project proposal assessments right now.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I also want to ask you about a separate matter, the $150,000 that has been set aside in the 2018-19 estimates for the cybersecurity co-operation program. Can you explain what the objectives of the program are? What partners will the government be co-operating with to carry out this program?

[Malcolm Brown]

It currently constitutes a very modest initiative of $150,000, and it's essentially just working with partners on specific projects that have a high impact. It will be working on sharing best practices and sharing information in terms of cyber-threats, such as a particular cyber-assessment that one of our partners may have done in the private sector or at the provincial level that we can work with. It's a very modest program.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Okay, it's a tool in the tool kit when it comes to cybersecurity. It caught my eye, so I wanted to ask about that.

[Malcolm Brown]

Yes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Can you expand on the safer communities initiative, at $42 million?

[Malcolm Brown]

Yes, this is a broad-based grants and contributions program that works with communities across the country, indigenous communities in particular, to create things like community safety programs that are designed by the community. There is external expertise that comes in, but they are community-led. It is very effective and oversubscribed. The demand outstrips our ability to supply the services people are looking for.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to reply to my colleague about the Prime Minister's message on Twitter. It was indicated clearly by the people in our embassies throughout the world, that as soon as that tweet was sent, all hell broke loose for those who had to answer questions.

I'd like to get back to the Canada Border Services Agency representatives.

Mr. Ossowski, I put a question to the minister earlier concerning the fact that people say that the Conservatives reduced the CBSA budget by $300 million. However, I have a report here that says the opposite. There were indeed budget cuts to administrative services, but I don't think there were any to field operations. In fact, the figures I have here show that there was an increase in the budget for field operations, which went from $1.7 billion in 2012-2013 to $2 billion in 2014-2015. Afterwards, the new government made budget cuts.

Can you confirm that what the ministers have been saying is inaccurate? Do the figures correspond to what I just said?

[John Ossowski]

Thank you for your question.

I would happily review your study and give you my insights on it. One quick example to explain any drop in the estimates might be that there was project funding provided for several large projects as part of the Beyond the Border action plan. Those projects have come to completion, so as they're done and move to a steady state status, the overall budget of the agency drops.

I'd be happy to review that document, the study you have before you, and provide my input based on my records.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

When the Conservative government was in power, before we had the illegal migrant issue, were there budget cuts on the order of $300 to $400 million made to the field operations of the Canada Border Services Agency, as we were told?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That goes to a political argument here and possibly—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

It's a budgetary question.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It is a budget question, fair enough. I wonder whether the best way to handle the answer is, as Mr. Ossowski said, to review your numbers and get back to you. Would that satisfy you?

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That's perfect, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to respect the public servants and not embarrass them, but the fact remains that this is a budget matter and 1 + 1 = 2. The Liberals have a different way of doing math, but that's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It would be difficult to embarrass them, actually.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Very good.

I will now address the RCMP.

We talked about the problem of the MS-13 gang. We know that members of this gang are active in our large Canadian cities. According to our information, there is an important inflow of confederates of this group who are coming to join their friends in Canada. Can you confirm that?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I can't confirm those numbers with you, or whether, in fact, they are operating in certain areas of our country. Any of the organizations that come to our attention are obviously investigated. We try to take that intelligence and bring it into evidence so that we can properly take those types of groups to court.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

People often claim that we Conservatives create division or that we are trying to scare Canadians. In fact, we would be more inclined to say that we like to know the facts. If there are dangerous criminals, we simply want to know. We want to know if you are taking steps to control them. We aren't trying to frighten Canadians, but neither do we want to wear rose-coloured glasses and think that everyone is law-abiding and nice.

Can you confirm that the RCMP has a good handle on the situation with regard to the MS-13 gang, and that the people who have been identified will be detained? Can you reassure Canadians on that front?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Anything that is under investigation, unfortunately, I can't share with you, but in many areas we have ongoing investigations of the groups you mention. If it comes to fruition, Canadians will be the first to be advised.