Public Safety Committee on June 7th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. It's a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 5; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We're on CPC-17. CPC-17 is still in order.

Mr. Paul-Hus.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'd like a point of clarification on CPC-17 and CPC-18, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes, the same rules apply.

If CPC-17 is adopted then CPC-18 is gone. If CPC-17 is defeated, CPC-18 could stand. CPC-17 and CPC-18 are identical.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's good to know. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's the interpretation.

Mr. Paul-Hus.

Mr. Paul-Hus, please present amendment CPC-17.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let's give our friends another chance. Our amendment is similar and concerns the transport of firearms for manufacturers and gun shows. I think it's quite clear.

We received a letter from William Gould, of Oakville, Ontario, which you, Mr. Chair, and Ms. Damoff also received. In it, Mr. Gould stated that Judge Khawly, of Toronto, told chief firearms officers on September 21, 2012 that authorization should include transport to manufacturers and verifiers. in his view, it is logically in the interest of public safety that firearms should function properly. That is what my colleagues mentioned earlier. He also said it was absurd to deny such authorizations merely because chief firearms officers had rarely granted them in the past.

Again according to the judge, from the standpoint of public safety—and we are the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security—a firearm that is legal and is used for hunting and on firing ranges must be safe. It makes no sense to complicate further the lives of honest firearms owners by requiring them to obtain an authorization each time they transport a firearm.

Mr. Bossio's proposal was really perfect. Now we have another chance with the Conservatives' amendment, which I believe should be adopted.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Chair, again, this goes back to adding the authority-to-transport clauses for gunsmiths and ranges as they were previously and for gun shops and gun shows. I understand why open-ended transportation permits for anyone would be an issue. For those who receive a firearms licence, however, who we understand are already subject to daily scrutiny, as has been identified, they can have their property seized by police much more readily than regular members of society, despite not being the problem. As we know, gangs and guns, drug issues, and violent criminals are the problem. It would stand to reason that restricting the straightforward and legal necessary transportation of a firearm to a gunsmith, a gun shop, or a gun show would continue to be a reasonable measure and would offer no significant risk to the public.

Now, from experience, I can tell you that I have on occasion stopped vehicles that were transporting firearms. Law-abiding gun owners, in all the circumstances that I recall, advised me upon my approaching that vehicle that they were licensed gun owners and had a firearm in their vehicle, and they advised me of where they were coming from and where they were going. They posed no threat to me, and they certainly posed no threat to anyone else in the public from that perspective. In most circumstances, I didn't see the firearms, because they were either in the trunk or secured in another location in the vehicle. In all circumstances, their triggers were locked, the guns were in a locked case, and they were not readily available to be seen by members of the public.

I am at a loss to understand any rationale from a public safety perspective, as indicated before, as to why the ATTs should be reduced at all. We already know that individuals and licensed businesses are subject to significant criminal sanctions if they break the rules. We know that if a gun shop sells a firearm to someone who doesn't have a PAL, if they sell it illegally, they could face up to five years in jail. A legal expert told us at committee that individuals and businesses are subject to gun-related offences should they not follow the rules.

It's unfortunate.... We have an opportunity here to maybe even endear this to some of our law-abiding firearms owners who have been ranting, appropriately so, against this particular bill, for them to recognize there's some reasonableness behind it. To me, reinstating some of the authorities to transport in this legislation provides at least a level of reasonableness that the law-abiding gun owners in this country are looking for from the current government.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I have a question for our witnesses.

Prior to Bill C-42 and the automatic ATT or the accompanying ATT with the RPAL, was there any situation whereby somebody who made an application to take their firearm to a gunsmith was denied?

[Rob O'Reilly]

I cannot state any specific situation.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

It would automatically be approved anyway, right? Do you foresee any circumstance where—

[Rob O'Reilly]

Well, no, that's not correct, in the sense that if the individual indicated that they were taking the firearm to a gunsmith but we were to check in the system and that individual did not have a business licence for gunsmithing, they would not be issued an ATT to take it to that individual.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

That's the clause.... So this is actually not an issue for the firearms owner, but an issue of who's a bona fide gunsmith.

[Rob O'Reilly]

I'm not sure if—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Well, that's what you just said. I mean, if they're taking the firearm to a place that's not a bona fide gunsmith.... As a department, do you have a list of who's a bona fide gunsmith?

[Rob O'Reilly]

Yes, we do.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Okay. For anybody who requests an ATT to take their firearm to a bona fide gunsmith, are there any circumstances under which they would be denied? Is there any foreseeable reason why they would be denied? It sounds to me like this is going to be an automatic approval. Can you give me a reason why it wouldn't be an automatic approval?

[Rob O'Reilly]

No, except that what would be occurring under Bill C-71 when an individual is issued an ATT to a gunsmith for repair, the ATT they would be receiving would be to that specific gunsmith at a specific window of time. The ATT they would be issued would indicate their place of residence, the gunsmith to which they are going, and the period of time of validity. It wouldn't simply be added to the licence automatically.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Okay. That's what it does and that's what it provides, but it would be automatically approved. There would be no circumstance in which a person who has an RPAL and has a registered restricted handgun and wants to take it to an approved on-the-list gunsmith would be denied.

[Rob O'Reilly]

I cannot think of a circumstance. Assuming that the gunsmith is validated and the purpose of the request for the ATT is validated, the ATT would be issued.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Does the department have any statistics showing how that's going to improve public safety?

[Rob O'Reilly]

I can't answer that question. We've not been asked to collect statistics in that regard.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

All right. Thank you.

[Rob O'Reilly]

You're welcome.