Public Safety Committee on June 12th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have 30 seconds.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'll just end by thanking you again. It's an issue that's really important for us to look at, and it's not something that would necessarily come up unless an individual member of Parliament championed it. Thank you for doing so.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz, you may take seven minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Shannon, for being here today and for taking the leadership on this file, joining with our other Alberta colleagues in bringing the Alberta rural crime task force forward. It's very timely that we're doing this, because we have an issue.

You indicated in your presentation that a majority of crimes that have been committed and are being committed are property related: break and enters, thefts, vandalism, and things like those.

Do you have any idea why there seems to be an uptick in the violent rural crime trend and what this committee should be doing to undertake a study in that regard?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I think that getting an understanding of the root causes and the factors behind the increase in rural crime should be exactly a part of the objective of this committee in undertaking this assessment. I think it is true that there is at least a correlation between job losses and the economic downturn, which happens to be correlated with the increase in rural crime, but I myself would not make that claim or profess to know whether it's causation or correlation involved. I suspect you'll be able to find experts on the subject through the course of your assessment and gain clarity on this. That would be an ideal objective.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

As you have indicated, our colleagues around Alberta have had town hall meetings and round tables throughout Alberta with community groups, rural crime watches, RCMP detachments, etc. One thing being reported is that crimes in closer proximity to larger centres—Grande Prairie, Fort McMurray, Edmonton, Red Deer, Medicine Hat, Lethbridge, Calgary—seem to be a big issue. Places within 100 kilometres around these were experiencing a lot of rural crime.

Is there an indication as to why this is happening? You touched on it briefly in your presentation. Can you expand on it briefly for us?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I heard the same thing when I was in round tables in Saskatchewan from colleagues there, that in those doughnut areas right around the big populated centres, crime is increasing most significantly. I myself do not know what the specific driver is behind those increases, except to say that I certainly hear it from RCMP members and from community members. There is an increasing awareness, I think, of the challenges for RCMP and law enforcement in suburban and in more rural and remote areas such as the area I represent.

It has been suggested that part of the cause is that they know there are vulnerable farms and businesses there, with challenges for law enforcement to respond in a timely way. There have been suggestions that this partly explains the increase.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Just to expand on that to end that statement, you'll find even from speaking to those who have been caught, the suggestion is that they have a drug problem, generally. They're going out to look for property and they know there is less of an opportunity to be apprehended because of the lack of police presence and even less population, and no one can identify who they are, and they can't get a vehicle description, etc. That certainly is an issue.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes, that's right, Glen, and the increases in organized crime and gang activities in those rural communities is also happening in indigenous communities in those rural areas.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Right.

You talked briefly in your opening statement about the impact it has on your constituents. Anybody who has been a victim of a crime has some sense of violation.

Can you expand on some of the experiences that have been shared with you that are maybe unique to the vulnerabilities that the rural communities face when they know they are on their own, that the closest law enforcement, or any help, period, is their neighbour, and only if they can get hold of them? Law enforcement could be hours away.

Can you describe what impact that has on those constituents?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes. It's interesting you'd say that because when people started contacting me by email and on Facebook about this motion, it was disproportionately women. They are farm wives or wives of husbands who still work in oil and gas, so maybe theirs husbands are gone from the home for long hours or weeks at a time. The women very much feel like they are targets. They know there are long response times from RCMP, and many of them just say that they feel vulnerable all the time. They believe it's inevitable that theirs homes will be broken into or robbed. They find themselves contemplating all of their options and have no idea what they would do if they were confronted with that scenario.

I've been told by families that they are planning on moving away from rural communities that they chose to go to for safety in the first place. It's a real thing that businesses are leaving small towns and shutting down, businesses that have been in those towns for generations. Long-time family-owned small businesses are shutting down because of the repeated thefts.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

You indicated that there is some inequity in the funding model, and certainly in some of the western provinces with the RCMP, and how municipal police forces are responsible for covering the entire cost of their own policing.

You also indicated that in some of these rural detachments there might be trouble recruiting. In the round tables, have you heard suggestions from the RCMP and other members that they're fully staffed, but they're fully staffed on paper and they have people who are on administrative leave?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

They have people who are on sick leave, or they're seconded to other parts of the province or the country. Those positions sit vacant, and it's not because they can't recruit for the positions; they just don't have the bodies and they have redeployed them elsewhere.

I know that in my area there are a lot of detachments where one guy is working and he has to cover hundreds of square kilometres in a shift to deal with calls. The vulnerability is there, and our criminals know it.

How do we deal with that?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz's time is well over his allocation, and it's an important question, but you'll have to work your answer into some other response, possibly even to Mr. Dubé's question.

Mr. Dubé, you have seven minutes.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Okay.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for all the efforts you've made, Shannon, for being here today and also for accepting Christine's amendment. I think that was very gracious of you and I appreciate your agreeing that it brings more to an already important motion.

I don't know if I'm touching on exactly the same things, but I do want to talk about the resource issue for the RCMP. I just wonder if, in that context, you have any comparative figures or statistics, or even anecdotes, about the comparison with Ontario and Quebec where there are provincial police who are covering these far, remote, and rural areas versus other provinces where the RCMP is in charge.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

We tried to get some numbers for comparative analysis, which proved to be difficult. I hope that's something your committee will be able to clarify.

I have heard from municipal association representatives that they are concerned that the committee differentiate in their analysis between those communities that are only served by the RCMP and those in provinces that have a combination of law enforcement resources. They say you will see a significant gap in coverage.

Another interesting point that I heard from a stakeholder, just as you all take on this analysis, is to be clear about the parameters of what you consider to be rural. I think the definition currently is 100,000 and lower. Of course, the biggest populated area in my riding, for example, is the Alberta side of Lloydminster, which is 15,000. It's not really related to your question, but just—

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

The higher the numbers are, the more likely it is there is a municipal police force—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes, exactly.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

—which changes the issue as well. Fair enough.

That's an interesting issue.

We were talking about folks being on leave, unavailable, or reassigned. Over the last number of years we have heard about morale issues in the RCMP, leading to recruitment challenges. Is there any indication that's part of the issue as well, the fact that people aren't signing up to the RCMP in the same way they did a number of years ago?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes, I have heard consistently from stakeholders at round tables who echo the same things you have all read publicly, the high levels of fatigue, burnout, and frustration.

What I hear from residents is that once they were very frustrated with the lag in, and in some cases non-existent, response time. That should not be misconstrued as a negative feeling towards the RCMP. In fact, those exact same residents will say they want more police presence, more visibility. It's a core priority for those residents, for the RCMP, to have sufficient resources to adequately serve and protect their communities. The RCMP members themselves expressed frustrations.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Arguably, I should know the answer to this. I've heard conflicting information, but even when it comes to dispatch and the availability of 911, for example.... I know cellphone towers and things like that are a big debate in this country, particularly in remote areas and rural communities. I might be mistaken, but I thought that 911 calls are supposed to work even when you basically have no coverage. I'm wondering how dispatching, and the ability to communicate play into dealing with some of the more urgent situations—not to downplay any forms of crime—that require first responders on the scene.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I hope that's an issue you can gain clarity on and get more information on from people involved in dispatching and law enforcement through the course of this assessment.

Without a doubt, I've heard directly from RCMP members that the lack of Wi-Fi and cell coverage is a serious concern for dispatching, their communications with each other, and also communication between residents and law enforcement.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I appreciate your mentioning Georgina. I think she has a lot of great things to say. I imagine your Conservative colleagues could help you with this.

Obviously, given that you presented the motion, you've done a lot of work, working with different stakeholders. Are you comfortable with providing the committee with a list of folks who you think are worthwhile hearing from on these issues?