Public Safety Committee on June 12th, 2018

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Has the risk of lawsuits been mentioned before?

Someone may want to save someone’s life by using a defibrillator, but cause the opposite effect. For example, the person may think it is a cardiac arrest when it turns out to be another problem. The electrical pulse may cause a problem.

Are the potential lawsuits following the intervention of a first responder or a police officer one of the things to study?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

That’s a very good question. I think we should probably look into that.

I don't have a lot of experience in the area, but from what I've read on the subject, the defibrillator will not work if it is not a cardiac arrest. In other words, the defibrillator will not be activated if it is not a cardiac arrest.

I don't believe the stories we have heard in the past about people giving heart massages and, for various reasons, breaking the person's ribs or causing other damage.

That being said, I am not an expert on justice and I do not want to get into that too much. However, I believe that, in an emergency situation, we have an obligation to provide first aid as best we can. I repeat that, according to everything I have read about cardiac defibrillators, the machine does not work if there is no cardiac arrest.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Dubé, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Rayes, thank you for being here. Thank you for your initiative.

Your experience as mayor allows you to bring that sort of view or perspective to the legislative debate. In this case, it takes the form of a motion. I appreciate that very much.

I would like to come back to some of the points raised by Mr. Paul-Hus, in particular the issue of respecting jurisdictions.

Just like you, I come from Quebec. We are well aware that, despite good intentions and noble gestures, territorial disputes can sometimes be significant.

With that in mind, I was wondering what recommendation you were considering making so that the federal government, in good faith, would do what it could to take the matter to other levels, but without stepping on anyone's toes?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I'll be very honest with you: the forecast is that it would cost about $8 million to finalize the project to equip all emergency vehicles with defibrillators. So it's less than $1 million per province, if you do a quick calculation. That's an approximate figure. My training as a math teacher helps me get that figure fairly quickly.

Compared to other issues where the federal government has negotiated with all the provinces, I think it is a tiny amount. All it takes for this project to apply to the entire country and to all organizations is some political will.

Now that I am a federal member, I am trying to push the issue further. I did the exercise while I was at the municipal level: I asked myself what role I could play as mayor of the municipality. I have shown leadership. I could not impose this measure on companies or the Sûreté du Québec. I could only influence the firefighters and the volunteer safety organization in my municipality. I think it's largely a leadership issue. As I said before, I do not think money is blocking the project.

Now that I am a federal legislator like all of you here, my wish quite simply is that all Canadians across the country have the same chances of survival.

I expect that, as a result of your study, your committee will have gathered all the research, will have more tools than I had to do the first part of the work and will be able to make recommendations. I guess that is the sort of thing that could be relatively easy to impose in a budget. That being said, as you all know, my motion could not include items with a budgetary cost, since I am not a member of the government. However, I think it is something that could very well be done.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

There are other levels of government, but there are also other first responders. Recently, paramedics came to visit us on Parliament Hill. One of their demands was to better serve rural and remote areas.

Should the report produced as a result of the study from this motion include a recommendation for additional resources to ensure that there are more first responders? As I understand it, the police are often the first ones to arrive on the scene. Shouldn't additional resources be provided to improve the response times of paramedics or to improve services in other regions?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Absolutely. The Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security could make other recommendations, but I would not want those recommendations to interfere with this project.

My brother is a firefighter with the City of Montreal, so I sort of know how it works. The City of Montreal firefighters are first responders. Their stations are much more dispersed across their territory. Often, they arrive first at the scene, until other people arrive who will be able to provide the services that the situation requires.

My only goal is to increase the number of people with defibrillators who can get to the scene quickly, be they police officers, firefighters or paramedics. They could also be volunteer responders or professional volunteers, as I like to call them. These people have basic training and want to give their time. If there was no defibrillator in a nearby building, at least the first responders on the scene would have one in their vehicle and could use it.

That is the main purpose of my motion. That said, I would never be against adding more resources to security services.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Mr. Paul-Hus has also raised the issue of training. Is training required to maintain those devices? Somewhat as you do before a plane takes off, should you do the maintenance or check that the equipment is working properly? You have more experience than I do in deploying municipal police to an event. Would additional training be required for this?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I think all professionals will ask for basic training.

As for the maintenance of those devices, we will have to rely on their technical features. I think you have to test them after a while, but I can't answer that with certainty. I am convinced that the companies that sell those devices provide details on the technical things to do to ensure that they work properly.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

What is the average life of those devices?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I wouldn't be able to tell you, unfortunately.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Okay.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

That would be a good question for someone in the field.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Yes.

Is there a cost associated with the maintenance of those devices? If so, I suppose it must be minimal.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

In my opinion, if there is a cost, it must be extremely minimal. Professionals who own these devices could very well do tests after one, two or three years, depending on the features of the devices. It must be relatively easy to do. I am sure that the companies that manufacture those devices have included a system similar to that of a smoke detector, that is, if the battery is defective after a certain time, a signal is sent to change it. I haven't done a study on that, but I'm sure that, if you invite suppliers here, you'll find out fairly quickly. Today, there are more and more suppliers of those devices.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

No doubt.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Mr. Boissonnault is next.

Welcome to the committee, sir.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I think it's Pam.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Oh, this list and that list don't line up.

Okay, Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Randy. Welcome back to the committee. It's nice to have you here again.

Last summer I was having breakfast with my sister in a restaurant in Oakville when an elderly gentleman behind us had a heart attack. It had been 20 years since I'd taken CPR. The 911 dispatcher guided me through what to do, and then the paramedics arrived with the equipment that was needed. Afterwards, I had all of my Ottawa staff and my riding staff take the CPR course. This included training on the AED, which is extremely simple.

The problem is that I think most people do not have the confidence to use them. They see them on the wall, but not having done the training, they don't realize they won't work if you're not having a heart attack. You can't put the things in the wrong place. You just can't get it wrong. However, most people don't have that confidence.

I really commend you for bringing this forward. In my community, they're in community centres. Again, it's an issue of people not knowing that they can use them properly.

You mentioned that on the Hill, after Gord Brown had his heart attack, we checked with the security guards at the Valour Building, and they didn't know where the AEDs were or even if we have them, which is a real concern. We should at least know where they are.

In my riding, I'm in a medical building, and they don't know where the AEDs are.

One of the things Heart and Stroke recommended was having a national registry for publicly accessible AEDs. Do you see that as something we could possibly add to what we're studying?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Yes, absolutely. You put your finger on a major problem. Once defibrillators are in place in buildings, the problem is really the signage. Once someone has seen something like that or has participated in a process to set up their surroundings with defibrillators, they are much more careful. From my personal experience, I can tell you that, when I walk around a public place like a shopping mall and I see one of those devices, I make a mental note of where it is located. Organizations that purchase them will have some work to do to inform people about where the devices are located.

In my motion, since I did not want to go all over the place, I really focused on the aspects that I thought were the most important. I wanted emergency service professionals to have those devices in their vehicles.

In this case, I don't think it's a problem, since those professionals would know how to use them. However, when you meet with experts—as I hope you will—if those issues are addressed, it may not be a bad idea to make other recommendations to push the issue even further. The idea is to make people realize that they are installing those devices thinking they are doing a good thing, but then they fail to work on raising awareness.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

One of the issues—and if you've come from municipal politics, you know this—is funding. The library provided us with a 2014 report that this committee did on the economics of policing. Municipalities pay 60% of policing in Canada, and it makes up to 50% of their budgets. When I was doing some research on police forces in North America that have these devices in their cars, it looks like a lot of them got them from donations or grants. Your colleague, Scott Reid, donated to a police service.

Is that what you're envisioning, that it would be grants that municipalities could apply to the federal government for in order to equip their police vehicles?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

That's a very good question. I don't know how it should be done. I leave it up to the committee to determine which model would be the best. If we come to the conclusion that it is a necessity, we will have to find the best way to proceed. For example, federal money could be transferred to other authorities, or it could be a group purchase through Public Services and Procurement Canada, which would purchase the defibrillators and distribute them. A remaining question is whether, so as to be fair to everyone, the government should consider compensating those who have already purchased those types of devices themselves.

I am thinking here of the question Mr. Dubé asked earlier about jurisdictions. I don't think the amount is large enough to create conflicts. No one is against motherhood and apple pie. I sincerely feel that, if a federal report highlighted this shortcoming and pointed out an inequity across the country, the rest would be relatively simple to manage later, during a budget year.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

The same report indicated that only 15% of Canadians live in communities serviced by the RCMP. Obviously, only equipping RCMP vehicles would help, but it wouldn't reach as many communities as we would like.

Another stat I saw was that Ottawa equipped its vehicles, and the survival rate went from 6%, which is what it would be if you did nothing, to 12%. It doubled the survival rate of Ottawa citizens, because the police vehicles had the AEDs in them. It's certainly a worthwhile venture. By only equipping the RCMP we're not going to get to as many citizens as we would like. I know why you've done it, because we only have responsibility for the RCMP.

Did you do any analysis on how much it would cost to put them in RCMP vehicles? You mentioned $8 million for everyone. Did you look at just the RCMP?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Yes, we did a little research with the people at the Library of Parliament. If I am not mistaken, based on the data we have, it would be about $5 million in the case of the RCMP. We estimated that it would cost about $8 million to equip all emergency vehicles with defibrillators. That being said, we should certainly look at this a little more thoroughly in order to update the data.

Let me reiterate that the first part of the motion is for the RCMP, for jurisdiction purposes, but I still believe that, if you decide to make recommendations, we should go further. I am thinking particularly of the First Nations. The government, and I think Parliament as a whole, is very sensitive to what is happening within First Nations. They often have independent police forces and want to have their own services. It would be helpful if you did the research. I did not, I have to admit, but I am deeply convinced that their areas could be better equipped with cardiac defibrillators.