Public Safety Committee on June 12th, 2018

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You get the last intervention.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you; that's kind.

Mr. Rayes, I would like to thank you for your presentation.

About 20 years ago, I received a phone call from the hospital in St. Albert. That was in 1997. I was told that my sister was in hospital there and that I had to go. When I arrived, I found my whole family outside the hospital. My sister, who was 20 years old at the time, died suddenly that morning, while she was in perfect health. We didn't know why she died. It was later determined that her heart had stopped. She was at work, on the telephone, and she fell out of her chair. She died in less than 20 minutes. We are now convinced that a defibrillator would have saved my little sister's life. There was also the death of my father, six years ago, who died of a heart attack. So my family is the perfect example of cases where the chances of survival are practically nil without a defibrillator. I fully support you and the committee's efforts.

It is interesting to note that in Morinville, where I grew up, we were essentially covered by the RCMP. In my riding of Edmonton-Centre, where I now live, that is the responsibility of the Edmonton Police Service. So I've known both police systems.

I would like to know if you think your motion is sufficient to provide authorities other than the federal government and the RCMP with the necessary leadership or the moral support to encourage cities and municipalities to act on what you are proposing in your motion.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Yes, that's right. I'm convinced that a report from the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security that would be support by all parliamentarians, and therefore by the government, of course, could get things moving quickly. I'm convinced that, if things were conducted smoothly, this could be resolved before the end of the mandate. There is still one budget year left. In other words, we should try to get there as quickly as possible.

I still believe that, in our budget year, these amounts are a trifle. I am convinced that if we brought people around the table who would even be a little bit wild, it would be quite possible to find these sums within a budgetary framework. At least, we could negotiate or discuss with the premiers or representatives of the provinces, territories and First Nations. We could send a very clear message. I'm also thinking, considering all the comments you have made, that it would be possible, at the same time, to encourage the economic community as a whole, as well as educational and health institutions, to equip themselves with these devices. That would create movement.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

With respect to the public service and Public Service and Procurement Canada, is there a policy that all federal buildings must be equipped with defibrillators? I don't know the answer to that question. What I mean is, I'm not acting like a lawyer by asking a question that I already know the answer to. If such a policy exists, where are we in this regard?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to answer your question about buildings. But I can tell you that, if all federal buildings are equipped with defibrillators, I haven't seen many in my two and a half years since becoming a member of Parliament. I seriously wonder where I would find a defibrillator if an employee in my office or an adjacent one had a heart attack. I would dial 911.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I wouldn't even know where to go in the Confederation Building. In fact, I don't know if there is one there.

I did an Ironman triathlon in memory of my sister. I think the work we're doing today is important. It's in memory of my sister and father. Thank you very much.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I have also done Ironman triathlons.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Well, there you go!

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I'll be doing my third Ironman this August.

This project is very important to me.

Our time is running out. I just want to thank you personally for your questions and your attention to this motion. I want to thank all parliamentarians from all the political parties for their support.

You can't imagine how proud I felt that day to be a Canadian MP and to see that, although there is partisanship on many issues, as we know, we are all able to stand up when it's for the well-being of all Canadians.

I want to thank you all for what you've done.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's a good note on which to end our time with you, Mr. Rayes.

Thank you for your presentation. It was very interesting.

Thank you, too, to committee members for their participation. It was also very rewarding.

We're going to suspend for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We can resume.

Our next presenter is Ms. Shannon Stubbs, the MP for Lakeland. She is presenting on Motion M-167 regarding rural crime in Canada.

Ms. Stubbs, welcome to the committee. You have 10 minutes.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of you for asking me to be a witness at this committee as you undertake the assessment called for by Motion M-167. I am very grateful that the House of Commons passed that motion unanimously on May 30.

In probably what may be a rare moment for me, regardless of the length of time that Lakeland keeps sending me back here to represent them, I do want to thank explicitly the Liberals for offering their support for Motion No. 167 so that we could get here today. I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to the action against rural crime that my and all our of our constituents deserve. Rural members of Parliament have been active in advocating on this urgent issue, for example, the work of the Alberta rural crime task force, and joint town halls in Saskatchewan between MPs, provincial and municipal representatives, RCMP members, and concerned residents.

Between its introduction and the second hour of debate, Motion M-167 received 101 endorsements from local crime watch groups and from a wide cross-section of provincial MLAs, municipalities, and major municipal associations in seven provinces, including the Alberta Provincial Rural Crime Watch Association with 17,000 members, Farmers Against Rural Crime with 16,000 members, the Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, the Alberta Urban Municipalities Association, the Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities, and the Association of Manitoba Municipalities. Hundreds more Canadians contacted me in support, and dozens shared their personal experiences.

I want to recognize the NDP for their support of Motion M-167 right at the outset. I accepted an amendment that added measures to increase the effectiveness of indigenous police forces, resources for rural judicial and rehabilitation systems, and improved support for victims of rural crime. It undoubtedly strengthened the motion from its original version.

I don't want to be prescriptive to this committee on how you undertake this analysis, but I want to mention MP Georgina Jolibois, the member for Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, as a potential witness or as someone whose input may be sought during your work. She is from northern Saskatchewan, spent nine years on the RCMP “F” division's aboriginal advisory committee, and is the former mayor of La Loche. She may offer unique insight, and we share common views on consistent approaches to protect law-abiding Canadians, regardless of community or region.

I want to tell you why I put this motion forward.

After the 2015 election, the main concern in Lakeland was the loss of oil and gas jobs in Alberta; however, it rapidly became rural crime, which I heard about repeatedly from residents and business owners when I was knocking on doors last summer in towns and visiting farm families across Lakeland, which is about 32,000 square kilometres. Many have been victims of multiple break-ins and robberies, with varying degrees of violence. Many say that they know more people who have been broken into than who haven't, and others believe that it is inevitable. The reality is that they feel unsafe in their homes, and they are concerned about a lack of visible police presence. Most say that they have never faced anything like this before. It is seriously impacting business retention and personal and business insurance renewals because of the high likelihood of property being damaged and stolen throughout those communities. To be sure, my constituents' experiences are reflected in statistics.

Rural crime is a growing problem across Canada. Statistics Canada reports that Canada's crime index rose for the first time in 12 years in 2015. The highest increase was in western Canada, led by a 10% spike in rural Alberta. In 2016, the index increased for a second year in a row, with several thousand more police-reported incidents. Currently, there are claims that numbers are declining slightly, but there is also a reasonable consensus that the stats are being skewed because so many rural Canadians are giving up and have stopped reporting.

In 2015, the bump in the national non-violent crime severity index, CSI, was partly the result of significantly increasing property crime, most notably in Alberta. In 2016, the CSI increased 2% over 2015 nationally. Alberta's uptick was primarily due to more breaking and entering, thefts of $5,000 or under, and motor vehicle theft. Just to put this in perspective for you, a recent RCMP report found that property crime in rural Alberta alone has risen by 41% in the last five years, while the population has only grown by 8%. Those kinds of crimes also significantly contributed to push up CSI rates in New Brunswick, Saskatchewan, and the Northwest Territories.

I know that many of you on this committee represent ridings in the greater Toronto area, which is highly populated, so I want to give some rural perspective, both anecdotal and based on the facts.

Most rural areas across Canada are policed by the RCMP, except in Quebec and Ontario, which have provincial police forces. The RCMP provides specific federal policing services in those provinces as it does in the rest of the country. Many larger cities and districts have their own municipal police forces, but more than 150 municipalities, three international airports, and 600 indigenous communities have contracts with the RCMP for their local services, which is why my motion touched on the multiple jurisdictions involved.

In rural Canada, the RCMP has a lot of ground to cover. They have very limited resources and understaffed detachments, and there are unique factors like challenging road conditions with no street lights over great distances, and inconsistent or non-existent Wi-Fi and cell coverage. That all impacts response times.

Rural Canadians are creating buddy systems between farm families. There are neighbourhood watches and citizens on patrol to help protect each other because of long response times. One of my constituents, Bob, told me that his community had to start a WhatsApp group in their area where members alert other members of suspicious vehicles and events so that they can respond to help each other since there is effectively no RCMP response.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Excuse me, but could you read more slowly?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I'm sorry. I think interpreters have this challenge with me.

Thanks, Pierre.

Candace, who is also from Lakeland, told me that they operate a substantial farm which is their livelihood. Their shop was broken in to. The tractor trailer cab interiors were messed up. Registrations, glasses, meds, paper files, etc., we taken. There were excellent footprints, but the RCMP showed up a week later.

Just so you know, that family farm has been broken into more than once in the past two years, and one of their sons down the road had his truck stolen out of his yard by three criminals while his kids were outside playing. The reality for that family is that if anything had happened, the RCMP that would be dispatched to help them were 60 kilometres away.

RCMP members themselves have been speaking out, which is difficult and a challenge for them, but they say they are concerned about their own safety and the safety of the communities that they serve and protect across Canada. In Lakeland, one detachment has only four RCMP members covering 2,200 square kilometres and 8,500 Albertans. The reality is that there are rarely two officers on duty at once because of a lack of administrative staff. One may be out on the ground, and one is usually back at the office doing administrative duties.

There have been recent stand-alone announcements and budget commitments this spring from the Alberta and Saskatchewan provincial governments for targeted rural crime reduction teams, more resources for prosecutors and courts, and other collaborative law enforcement initiatives. In January, the federal government announced $291 million for policing in first nations and Inuit communities in Canada over the next five years. These are a start, and your committee's assessment will be a timely opportunity to review and measure outcomes, successes, gaps, and future needs related to these various initiatives.

While rural crime is most acute in western Canada, eastern provinces face high rural crime rates too. In Newfoundland and Labrador, the town council of Indian Bay supported a motion unanimously, saying that their area has seen more and more crime in the past months. In the past two weeks alone there were six home break-ins, which is unheard of in their area, and very concerning. They say it's becoming an increasing issue in Newfoundland and Labrador, much like the rest of Canada. They're doing their best to support their community, neighbours, and neighbouring communities, but there are limits to their resources and authority. Those comments were echoed by an endorsement from the Town of Kensington in Prince Edward Island.

From B.C. to P.E.I. and the north, rural crime is a major challenge, with many factors including gangs and the opioid crisis harming families, businesses, and communities.

My constituents and other rural Canadians often tell me that they feel like sitting ducks and that they originally moved to a rural area in order to feel safe because it's safer than urban areas. Most officers are doing the best they can with what they have, but there is a widespread frustration and feeling of vulnerability. For comparison, if you live in downtown Toronto, the closest police force to you would be located in Markham, and if you live in Montreal, the closest police detachment would be located in Terrebonne. That means that if you or your family were in danger, the police response time would be at minimum 40 minutes.

In summary, that is exactly what my constituents and residents all across rural Canada are facing. That's why I'm pleased that the committee will undertake this formalized, in-depth assessment of this urgent issue on behalf of all rural Canadians. I look forward to the recommendations that will result from your committee study.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Stubbs.

Ms. Damoff, you have seven minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I'd like to thank you very much for bringing this motion forward. I have family in Alberta, and in January of this year, I was out visiting on a farm in Camrose. At the farm the previous year—the owners are not there all the time—someone drove a car onto the property and set it on fire. Luckily, neighbours called, and they were able to put the fire out before the fire actually reached the home. They've had to spend money on security, as well as on a gate at the end of the driveway. They're on a very quiet road, and the night I was there, a car was driving up and down the road. My cousin's partner's brother followed the car, and came at 3:00 in the morning to check and make sure that we were okay. He was given a very hard time about following a car on his own on a quiet rural street.

So, while I represent a GTA riding, I certainly have a lot of respect and appreciation for your bringing this motion forward because I have seen first-hand the impact that it has on families. Thank you for that.

The minister held a guns and gangs summit in March, and some of the testimony there was about how new drug markets have been driving the gangs out of urban centres and into rural and indigenous communities. In a CBC article I was reading, one of the people who spoke there, Kathleen Buddle, talked about some of the modern aspects of gangs, which include human trafficking.

Certainly, as vice-chair of the status of women committee, human trafficking is an issue that's of great concern to me. I'm just wondering if you would be okay with, while we're looking at rural crime, including that aspect in what we're studying.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I wouldn't want to be prescriptive to your work as you undertake it as committee members; however, to your point about increased gang activities in rural communities, I've certainly heard from members of law enforcement, as well as from an MLA in Alberta who was formerly a member of the city police, that increased organized crime operations in rural communities is happening. It's in part because they know there is a lack of police presence out there. I certainly would have no problem with that factor also being included in this analysis.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I think I read the stat—and you probably have better information than I do—that one in 10 RCMP officer positions are vacant because it's hard to get people into rural and remote communities. You're nodding your head, so I think that stat is probably, if not right, close to right.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes, I think it is. I'll just tell you that I have been in some round tables with some RCMP members who have said that they're making efforts as of this year to try to increase recruitment and those numbers, but that is certainly the latest stat I have and that was public.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's pretty significant. You mentioned response times. Certainly, if all of those positions were filled, it would be a step in the right direction toward getting those response times down. Have you heard anything from your discussions or round tables about how the RCMP can go about that to recruit for those rural and remote areas?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Well, I have heard RCMP representatives at round tables say that they are focusing on recruitment, but there are challenges both in recruiting into the force in general and then into rural detachments specifically. This is why I think your committee's undertaking this study is a perfect opportunity to get a more in-depth handle on what is happening in terms of RCMP recruitment, retention, and distribution in rural communities.

There is an added factor that is not just about boots on the ground in terms of serving officers, but also about a shortage in support staff and administrative staff. That's one of the issues that's been raised in Lakeland and when I travelled around in various communities. There are local municipalities and counties that are trying to address this issue themselves by coming to the table with funding offers to try to support hiring more administrative staff into the detachments to provide support that way. However, even as of last month I was hearing that there is still a long time frame in which that can actually be implemented to increase support staff in the detachments to—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Just as you were talking, the Library of Parliament gave us a report from 2014 regarding the previous motion that came here. It was about the economics of policing, which this committee studied in 2014.

One thing it talked about was the average cost to the RCMP of an RCMP member in the north being $220,000, whereas in the south it was $121,000. It's costing the service more as well to put people in there. Trying to get those incentives makes it even more expensive to get people to serve in rural and remote communities.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes. I suspect your committee may end up hearing concerns from some municipalities about the funding model for RCMP support in their local communities.

Speaking from the perspective of Alberta—I think Saskatchewan's is similar—the funding model is such that municipalities with more than 5,000 residents incur the complete cost of their own RCMP support. Now, those models are provincially developed, obviously, but because of the multiple jurisdictions involved in this question, I think you may hear such feedback through your committee.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I think I only have about 30 seconds left, haven't I?