Evidence of meeting #136 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Brampton North, Lib.
—segregation to be used in dangerous situations. That's what I meant by does it eliminate the existence of it.
Volunteer and Consultant, John Howard Society of Canada
We believe that will only be utilized against violent offenders, but eventually we'll be the outcasts of everything.
Brampton North, Lib.
Thank you.
Can I ask the Elizabeth Fry Society another question as well? You talked about “meaningful human contact” and the lack of definition of that. Can you help describe what your definition is of that?
Regional Advocate, Pacific, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
My definition of meaningful contact from CSC, is that what you're asking? The meaningful human contact that I got was all through a food slot, and it's not meaningful at all. For your extra hours out, you're still alone in a cell. As CAEFS, we'd like to see meaningful human contact in the form of people from the outside, doctors, counsellors, reintegration workers who are actually helping them plan and get ready for the release.
As corrections stands, your meaningful human contact is when the staff come through and talk to you for 10 minutes or the doctors who come through. They also said it's more like they're coming to hand out meds to inmates and it's not meaningful at all in that way.
Brampton North, Lib.
Do you think at all that this bill takes a step in the right direction to the vision that you have? I know that your vision goes to even having no prisons, but that's not currently, today, on the table. Do you think that having targeted interventions, which this bill allows for, program tailoring, all of those things, are improvements?
Regional Advocate, Pacific, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
If implemented they would be. However, in the women's population, just in general pop, sometimes you're waiting months and months for programs, so I just don't know how they're going to all of a sudden allocate all these programs to the special unit when you have the women in general pop who aren't even being programmed, and they're not even the proper programs. I was sent through three substance abuse programs and I've never done drugs in my life, so they need something that's actually assertive and meant for the people who they're trying to rehabilitate.
Volunteer and Consultant, John Howard Society of Canada
It also gives the consequence that you have to get in trouble in order to get programming. What about the rest of the population? I've been the rest of the population while people are getting in trouble, so what about me? I'm to be discriminated against because you're supplying multiple millions of dollars to programming in areas that those people need, but I need it too. It's a double-edged sword.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We're going to have to leave it there. Thank you very much.
Mr. Eglinski, you have five minutes, please.
Jim Eglinski Yellowhead, CPC
Thank you.
I'd like to thank both the Elizabeth Fry Society and the John Howard Society for coming out, but I'd really like to thank both of the other two witnesses, Alia and Lawrence. It takes a lot of nerve to come up here, and congratulations. I think you're giving us a clearer picture of the situation that's really out there.
I have a medium-security facility in my riding of Yellowhead, the Grande Cache Institution, which I think is probably one of the most beautiful settings for an institution anywhere in the world. It's right on top of a mountain. I've had the opportunity since Bill C-83 came out to talk to the guards, to the prisoners, to former guards and former prisoners. They don't like it, I don't like it and it's obvious you folks don't like it.
Lawrence, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions and some of them might be a little pointed, but I'm not trying to be.... First of all, I want to compliment you on the way you've handled yourself here.
We kept hearing from the commissioner and the other people—
Volunteer and Consultant, John Howard Society of Canada
Yes, we have a history.
Yellowhead, CPC
—that Bill C-83 is all about rehabilitating the prisoners. You talked about administrative detention, preventive detention and disciplinary detention. In your experience—and you spoke about your vast experience—you said there's a need for it.
I wonder if you can quickly explain to the people why there's a need. Certain people need to be protected from the other inmates. Others need to be separated because of investigations and so on.
Volunteer and Consultant, John Howard Society of Canada
I'll speak on all realms, although I do not like to touch on protective custody issues. I will touch on them to give you clarity for the rest, and for the safety of other individuals, but I don't like speaking outside of a code—a prisoner code.
Volunteer and Consultant, John Howard Society of Canada
No. It's a code you don't understand as politicians, and you'll never understand it unless we start to have some of the conversations that are meant to be had between us.
Anne Kelly's decisions.... You must first understand that we have a history. She sat here before you on Tuesday. I offer my file to you again, like I offered it to the Senate, to show you her ability and inability to make positive decisions that reflect these decisions, such as confinement.
The structured intervention units you're speaking about right now reflect the SHU protocol. When I say that, I'm talking about the Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines, Quebec, maximum-security federal institution, which is not recognized by your own legislation that you guys passed in Parliament, and I'm holding you guys accountable. I was held there for seven years under her reign, and then she was elevated by you guys. I'm asking you guys to start reviewing those decisions and to start to understand.
What you're asking to be achieved, I'm not asking to be crushed. I don't want segregation to be crushed. If men are murdering each other in prison, we all have the right, as Canadian citizens, to be safe and secure. Under section 7 of the charter, we would appreciate if that could exist. If we can't supply it ourselves, we're depending on the guards to supply that, but not to take it away on just the allegations of security. Honestly, the men who are killing and stabbing each other and are in violent situations need to be separated and adjudicated appropriately.
Yellowhead, CPC
You mentioned earlier that you were released. You didn't get the help. You didn't get the treatments you sought.
With the way our penal system's working right now—
Volunteer and Consultant, John Howard Society of Canada
You won't be able to help a single person here.
Volunteer and Consultant, John Howard Society of Canada
No. It was I who did this, with the help of the John Howard Society.
Yellowhead, CPC
How about you, Alia? Do you feel you were rehabilitated in the program we've been talking about?
November 8th, 2018 / 4:25 p.m.
Regional Advocate, Pacific, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
No, sir. I actually went to school and did a year of mental health after I was released, so I could fully understand and rehabilitate myself. Prison did nothing. I learned how to survive in there, but that's it.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
With colleagues' permission, especially for our witnesses who have a personal experience, can we ensure it is made known to them that there's an option to submit written submissions as well, in addition to their testimony, just in case there are things they haven't been able to get to?
Volunteer and Consultant, John Howard Society of Canada
I would have loved that. I would have loved to bring evidence to the committee today.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
That's a good point. Okay. Today doesn't necessarily end it.
I think we're down to our final five minutes, with Ms. Damoff.