Public Safety Committee on Nov. 8th, 2018

[Jason Godin]

Unfortunately, due to cabinet confidentiality, as our commissioner often tells us, we weren't really consulted. The bill was as much a surprise to us as it was to anybody. I don't see the bill before it comes onto the table, so we weren't officially consulted on Bill C-83.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Do you believe that the way this bill could play out and the impact it will have will create a safer environment for your staff, for mental health workers and for other inmates? What are your thoughts on that?

[Jason Godin]

It depends on how we capitalize on it. We have constantly advocated for more mental health services and support, because at the end of the day, the correctional officer is limited in his ability to manage that. It's a good thought. It's ambitious, but at the end of the day, how are we going to deliver upon that? We continue to advocate for that.

We're not the mental health care professionals. Again, the bill is very ambitious, and it's very costly, if this is the route we're going. We often have difficult times with mentally ill inmates, when we can't get them to psychiatric facilities in the province and they kick them back to us, so we're left managing them. You have to remember that around 72% of our inmate offender population suffers from mental illness. That requires a tremendous amount of resources, if we're going to manage 72% of our offenders who have mental illnesses.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I don't think you were here during Ms. Latimer's comments, and you indicated again that there will be costs to make this happen. Of course, we'd be naive to believe it could be done under the current program, the current costings.

The minister and the commissioner were unable to provide for us or unwilling to provide for us any of the costings. Has your organization given any thought as to what some of these proposals would look like from your perspective, and what the financial implications would be?

[Jason Godin]

To be honest with you, our organization hasn't costed that out. We don't really have the access to those kinds of numbers.

All I can tell you is that if you're managing 75 offenders and you want to take them out for four hours a day, excluding phone calls and showers, there's an exorbitant cost to that and you have to have staff. We all know that the biggest cost driver in corrections is staffing. We're a people business, but I wouldn't even hesitate to guess the multimillions of dollars this type of bill is going to cost and to what extent it would end.

The cost of rehabilitation is expensive and, again, this is an ambitious program. I would hope that the minister is forthcoming with the cost because we've seen policy changes already without any resources and I've explained that to some of the members of the committee about when they made changes to CD 709 and 843, where they allowed them two hours out, and at the same time their cell effects have to be delivered to them within 24 hours. We were told that resourcing was coming for that. We've received nothing.

We're a little bit skeptical about receiving resources for this because we're doing more now with less. That's exactly what's happening in our seg units right now. We're pretty concerned about this because this is pretty ambitious.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Speaking about a safe environment, I know that there has been conversation, and we heard the minister in the House as recently as this week speak to the needle exchange program and what it's intended to do, and he kept alluding to EpiPens and diabetic needles.

I'm not naive enough to believe that's the purpose behind the needle exchange program. I don't think anybody else should believe that either. There are two institutions apparently that are starting this already.

Can you tell us the impact of this needle exchange program?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

Mr. Motz, in keeping with the.... I may be vice-chair but I know the chair is right behind me—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

He's right there.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

In keeping with his previous rulings, there isn't anything related specifically to this, so if you can make a connection to specific aspects of the legislation—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

It's about safety. It's about making sure that we have a safe work environment, and that's exactly what Bill C-83 says it's going to do, improve safety.

I'm just curious to know their thoughts on whether that program will improve safety.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

I'm sure you'll make the connection with the bill.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Don't take up my time.

[Jason Godin]

Would you like me to answer the question?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Answer the question.

[Jason Godin]

Listen, for the prison needle exchange program, the current two institutions are up and running. We're already incurring some difficulties, and I'll give you an example for Atlantic Canada, where the inmates have needles. Our job is zero tolerance on drugs. We're supposed to confiscate drugs, search for drugs, but currently the inmate who's on the program, or one of the inmates who's on the program there, has refused urinalysis testing.

Our response to that, in our view, would be swift. The inmate has to come off the program immediately. We've asked the commissioner straight out, what are you going to do with that situation because now the inmate is not in compliance with the drug interdiction strategy, not in compliance with the zero tolerance policy on drugs? Are we eliminating urinalysis, I guess, is the question because if there's not a decision being made, we're saying the inmate needs to be removed from the program.

We only have two institutions up and running. We saw our first heroin seizure not too long ago in Atlantic. We're all of a sudden seeing that—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

And an overdose I hear, too.

[Jason Godin]

I don't know about an overdose specifically, I just know that drugs were intercepted. Heroin was intercepted, and if you talk to some of the veteran officers there, they were surprised. They haven't seen those types of interceptions before.

Traditionally, in the Grand Valley Institution, since its opening in 1999, we've only found one needle inside the women's facility in over 20 years. In that case, most of the time female offenders are generally using different opioids or drugs as opposed to heroin, so we were quite surprised. We'll have to see how that pans out but we're quite surprised that we're introducing needle exchange in a women's facility.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Perfect.

Obviously, the needle exchange program is a risk factor to other inmates and is a risk factor to guards.

Is that reasonable to assume?

[Jason Godin]

It has the potential to be.

The critics will say there have been no needle-stick injuries in Europe, but we can't say that. Our inmate population is different. The culture is very different here in North America.

I can tell you, working at Kingston Penitentiary, I witnessed an officer attacked with a needle, so the critics can say what they want. At the end of the day, the needles don't belong in the cells and this is what we need to advocate for. It's really a health care issue and we need to look at that seriously.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

With that, Mr. Dubé, you have seven minutes please.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Godin, I'd like to know about the independent review of the decisions that are taken, whether by the institution's officials or the Commissioner, regarding the solitary confinement of an inmate or his or her presence in the integration unit mentioned in the bill.

Do you also feel that the independent review missing from the bill would be a good thing? It would make it possible to balance the decisions taken by your bosses, essentially, if I may say so. To some extent, this would allow you to know for sure how situations are managed and decisions are made.

[Jason Godin]

Again, certainly I was very clear in my brief to say that we have a role to play. As correctional officers, we have our ear to the ground 24 hours a day. We see a lot of inmate behaviour, and at the end of the day, it's very essential that right from the warden down we're engaged at every level. It's important to listen to us.

We're not against mental health treatment. We're certainly not against any of that, or against health care, but sometimes in an institution, security must trump that, if you understand what I'm saying. Sometimes the safety and security take precedence over mental health treatment because of the safety and security of other inmates. It's not that we're against it. Of course we want to deliver it, but at the same time, we have a huge role to play in it.

Oftentimes as correctional officers, we don't feel as though we're heard. Correctional officers smell things in a jail. We live there. We have to survive there. To not take our opinions into account in terms of moving inmates from different units or security classifications.... We know sometimes who's incompatible. We know that so-and-so won't get along with this guy. Sometimes they have to stop and we all have to catch our breath. Let's have a discussion about it, and let's do what's safe for everybody inside the institution if we're moving an inmate from one unit to the other. I can tell you I've personally been involved where we've opened up new units, even at Millhaven. In one unit we opened up, I was involved in five stabbings in one week, and we had told them they couldn't mix those populations.

We have the expertise and the experience. Our opinion should be valued when we're moving inmates in and out of units inside facilities.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I will continue on the topic of union consultation, which is very important, of course. It was mentioned earlier.

When the Commissioner appeared before the Committee earlier this week, I asked her if there was a plan B. Courts have established a timeline, and that's the reason why this bill was proposed. As it is, we want to adopt it quickly.

They told me that they were trying to extend that timeline and that if it wasn't possible, we would consider a plan B, but they weren't able to give me more details.

Were there consultations with your union? Do you expect to be asked about a plan B that would be implemented if the bill were not passed before the deadline set by the courts?

[Jason Godin]

I should hope we would be. It's our understanding, based on the decisions, that there is an urgency to push the bill through. Again, we're going to be the first to tell you that we need to slow things down a little bit. If there is a plan B, we would really like to know about it, but often what happens with us is that we get cabinet confidentiality thrown at us. I understand the rules of Parliament, but at the same time, they have to engage us at some point. At the very least, I have to give the commissioner a little bit of credit that she did have a pre-discussion with us before Bill C-83, not to the level of detail we would like but nonetheless there was a conversation.

But if there is a plan B, our expectation is that our deputy head, being the commissioner, would sit down with us prior to plan B being unveiled. We should have some input into what plan B would look like.