Public Safety Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2018

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

RCMP manages the national central bureau, which obviously my partner from the OPP is engaged in. However, the INTERPOL Ottawa office engages with all police forces and other government departments within Canada to share information and to avail themselves of assistance if the other organizations are needed.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Looking at the chain of command, when INTERPOL informs a country that there's a person of interest, is it solely the decision of the local police force to decide whether they should act upon it?

For example, if INTERPOL tells you that I am a person of interest, can the RCMP decide whether to proceed or not, or do they have an obligation to proceed?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

If INTERPOL advises us that there's a red notice, for instance, that indicates that a foreign country would be willing to arrest that person if they were in their country, that's not to say we will use that same standard. We will not use that standard.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

If you act, can you act on a person if the alleged crime is covered by our own criminal system? It might not be a crime here but a crime somewhere else. Therefore, what kind of position are you in then?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

As a general proposition, and I think I touched on it earlier, I apologize if I wasn't clear enough then.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

I wasn't listening, maybe, possibly.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

That's fair enough.

If a foreign country were to enter a red notice, arguably they say they're willing to arrest this person if they were here, but they believe they're in Canada. That is not enough for us to arrest them. We would receive their request. It has already gone through Lyon and been vetted there to determine its legitimacy.

Once it comes to Canada, we then do another vetting process to ensure that we have all the relevant information. Even then, we would simply confirm that person is in Canada and we would not arrest on the strength of a red notice. We would simply know they were here. Of course it would alert us to the fact there's a potential criminal or threat within our midst, so we may conduct our own investigation if we have a reasonable suspicion to believe a person has committed an offence here. Otherwise, if responsible to do so, we would advise the foreign country that, yes, the person is in Canada, please contact the Department of Justice to begin the extradition request.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Why do you need an extradition instead of an arrest authority?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

Once they send their investigative package to the Department of Justice, it would go through another stringent review and if the Department of Justice supported the extradition process, they would acquire a provisional arrest warrant. We would then be in a position to arrest the individual and bring them before the court as we would any person we arrested in Canada.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

When information comes from INTERPOL, does it come from a police force asking INTERPOL to act and collaborate in having, for example, the RCMP or any other police forces act, or does INTERPOL have its own targets it creates? Is it specifically coming from the base?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

As a general proposition, the INTERPOL machination would involve country-to-country co-operation through INTERPOL. That said, over the last number of years, INTERPOL has maintained databases on suspected terrorists and other types of offences. In terms of our engagement with INTERPOL and the daily operation and dealing with red notices and other notices, a police force would provide the information to INTERPOL in Lyon. They are the only ones that can upload it onto the INTERPOL system as a red notice, for instance, and they would do their vetting. They're not investigating. They're just validating the information given to them. Then it would come to Canada or wherever, but in this case we're talking about here, and we would validate it again to ensure that we are comfortable.

For instance, in certain countries perhaps it's unlawful to have certain religious beliefs, so people may find it offensive and conduct a criminal investigation and charge somebody. If that came here, obviously it would be against the INTERPOL constitution. We would contact Lyon and make the case that this is not an offence in Canada, nor should it be an offence INTERPOL is willing to entertain. They will review it and likely if they find in our favour, they will eliminate the red notice.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

The vetting process at INTERPOL means that INTERPOL can decide whether a request is valid or not, or a request from one police force is acceptable or not. INTERPOL has the power to decide whether it will go forward or not.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

It does.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

That means, also, that if the police force involved in that one specific case has strong views and strong links with the authority, chances are it will just convey the request and try to push that to the government where the person of the interest is, hoping that they will concur with their request. That's a very high—

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

They could go through INTERPOL. They could go bilaterally—directly to the country for action—as well. They don't have to use INTERPOL if they don't want to.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Do they do it with an MLAT, or is an MLAT just for investigation?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

An MLAT would be for acquiring the evidence. In terms of conducting an investigation, they can just make the request. If we are supportive of the investigation and it's commensurate with our legal framework, we may entertain an investigation. We may not.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Just before I turn it over to Mr. Motz, the analyst just asked me a question that is relevant to the line of questioning here. If and when does the information from these red notices get entered into CPIC?

[Sergeant Ross Cameron, INTERPOL (Ottawa), Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

The information of a red notice is never entered into CPIC directly from the INTERPOL database. That being said, there is an interface that operates between CPIC and INTERPOL's global databases. If an officer elects to query that function, they can receive INTERPOL database results through their CPIC terminal.

Conversely, we may enter certain information into CPIC to support our domestic investigation, but that is done inside the national central bureau in Ottawa. When our interest is concluded, we remove it. At no time is a red notice transcribed word for word into the CPIC database.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

You can actually click a box when you're doing a query. You click an INTERPOL box and you will receive information. If there's a hit on the INTERPOL system, you will receive it. Red notices—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You'll receive it from your CPIC inquiry.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

Right.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Does the INTERPOL information always have to go through the RCMP or the INTERPOL liaison here, or can it go directly to a police officer on Bank Street?

[Sgt Ross Cameron]

Any law enforcement officer who has access to that CPIC terminal can use it to query INTERPOL databases. That being said, there are MOUs in place between the RCMP and various police services—mine included—that do facilitate officers in having direct access to the web portal where they can conduct their own searches directly on the database. That's considered—