Public Safety Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

In theory, the police officer on Bank Street is not going through the protocols that you folks are going through as to the validity of the red notice.

[Sgt Ross Cameron]

If he were to query that database through the interface on his CPIC terminal, the results he'd get back would be an abridged version of the red notice. It would be nowhere near as expansive as the original document.

The fact that it is searchable to him means that the notice has not yet been removed from INTERPOL's databases as a result of an identified misuse, or what have you. Conversely, if he does receive any information as a result of his search, he has no lawful authorities in place in Canada to effect an arrest based on the outstanding charges in the foreign country.

At that juncture he would, in all likelihood, document his observations of the scenario and the subject, and then report those back to us at INTERPOL Ottawa. We would make an evaluation of that information and then, were it deemed appropriate, share that with the requesting country.

At no point would an officer on Bank Street be involved in a direct information-sharing engagement with foreign law enforcement.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. I don't want to press the point, but we were curious.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

No, sir, you raise a good point.

If a red notice is issued in Lyon and the person is believed to be in Canada, it'll come to the NCB—the national central bureau—for vetting, processing and examination. However, if a person travelling from another country who's on a red notice completely unrelated to Canada shows up in Canada, at least the police officer can have an awareness that the person is on a red notice. Police in Canada are aware that you don't arrest on a red notice. We don't.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here today.

The main reason we're here this morning having this conversation is the angst created by, one, the former head of INTERPOL being arrested in China and then, two, the strong-arm tactics of the rumours of the Russians putting their person in charge of INTERPOL or advocating for that very aggressively.

We know there's political interference. I want to get to a question, but I need to just have some clarity first. You mentioned, Chief Superintendent, that there's an executive committee of INTERPOL. Obviously, the selection of those individuals is done by the member countries. I suspect, then, that selection is political.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

No.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

If it isn't, can you describe for us how the executive committee is...? First of all, how are members identified in those countries? How is an executive committee developed inside of INTERPOL itself?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

Okay. I'll do my best to answer that question, sir. I am not familiar with all the machinations of the electoral process.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I only have four minutes left, and I want to get to the answer.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

Okay, I will answer quickly then.

Essentially, police officers, generally senior executives, can self-identify and put their name in the hat, as it were, to run for a given position. Yes, there's a lot of seeking of support and a lot of back and forth with like-minded countries in the electoral process.

First of all, there's a president, three vice-presidents and nine delegates, all divided by four regions in the world. There's representation from Asia, Europe, Africa and the Americas. Once it goes to the general assembly, it is the 194 countries that vote for the different vice-presidencies, delegates, the president and so on.

I will say, as to your angst about the Russian president, you may know that he's been vice-president for a number of years and that the executive committee operates as a unit and that the president is the administrator, I would say for lack of a better word, of the executive committee but doesn't have any more significant power than any other member.

Therefore, it is really an issue of consensus building and doing what's best for the INTERPOL communities.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Having said that, a country like Canada and you as the RCMP's representative for Canada on INTERPOL, how do we advocate for expanded relief for the victims of the abuses of red notices, like Bill Browder? What do we do as a country to ensure the credibility of INTERPOL, because this is...? Red notices are a blatant, obvious political interference in some of these circumstances and are creating angst across member countries.

What, in your opinions, should Canada's role be, and what does it need to be in making sure we can expand relief for those people who are on red notice and shouldn't be on a red notice in the first place?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

I will say that, within the construct of INTERPOL itself, there are mechanisms for people to apply if they feel they're on a red notice, for instance, and they ought not to be. There's an office called the Commission for the Control of Files that is an independent body from INTERPOL, working to ensure that the constitution is adhered to and that the human rights conditions are met with respect to INTERPOL red notices and other notices.

A person can apply to that group for consideration that their name be taken off the list. That said, I would also suggest that currently we're in a favourable position in terms of having a strong Canadian representative on the executive committee. Certainly these issues can be brought up within the executive committee for discussion.

That said, we have a really strong Criminal Code but people seem to break it all the time. I think we need to appreciate that, regardless of how many rules and things you put in place, there are going to be issues. When those issues are raised, I think the executive committee has the responsibility to address them.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Having said that, sir, does that not call the credibility or integrity of INTERPOL into question in some regard?

There are some great countries involved and there are some countries that we all believe could be suspect in their level of credibility. Does that not also bring down the credibility of INTERPOL on their ability to properly manage the data and the people?

An example is red notices or other investigations to advance a political purpose. It seems that they are using a policing purpose, INTERPOL, to advance their own political agendas in those countries.

How do we...?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Just very briefly.

I've been very generous to Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

I will simply say, sir, that I'm not in a position, obviously, to speak to that particular case. As I said earlier, there will be different levels of engagement. Will there be malfeasance from time to time? Yes.

I believe the INTERPOL constitution and the rules that govern the body are significant and aim to ensure the integrity of INTERPOL.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz, you're stretching my generosity.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I know, but are there repercussions? That's the thing we need to find out.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

These are important questions, but Mr. Wrzesnewskyj also has some important questions, so five minutes go to Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Welcome to the committee.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you for joining us today.

Red notices and how they've been abused by Russia and the Kremlin is one serious issue. The other issue is that it's been politicized in another way. It's not just being used to target political foes or opponents of the Putin regime. Countries like Kosovo, who are up for application, were blocked by Russian lobbying. That has everything to do with geopolitics.

INTERPOL is supposed to be above politics, yet you see at its assemblies that geopolitics gets played out. Russia lobbied very hard to prevent Kosovo from joining. The State Department has said that what that has created is a gap, and that prevented the international policing structure of INTERPOL from closing a critical security gap in the Balkans. The Balkans are another hotbed for cyber-criminality, narcotics, arms and human smuggling.

I was wondering if you could comment on how Russia has politicized in this case, with geopolitical implications, the structures of INTERPOL.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

I'm unfamiliar with how Russia may or may not have operated around this INTERPOL election. I can simply say that there are a 194 countries represented on INTERPOL, each having a vote. How they vote is certainly held within their own conscience. I don't know if they were influenced by Russia or not. I can't really speak to that in particular.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

It seems clear, and from statements made by those who took part, Russia and Serbia, in fact, were behind the lobbying efforts when it came to Kosovo.

Sir, would you classify Russia as a kleptocracy?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

I'm not going to classify Russia as anything. I don't believe it's relevant to this conversation, sir. I'm not sure how that's relevant to the INTERPOL conversation.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

A country that many view as a kleptocracy, a gangster state, is not only a member but has one of its key officials on a board that makes very important decisions in terms of international policing. A country that provides sanctuary to international criminals involved in arms smuggling, human smuggling and drug smuggling has access to some of the most important information that this police force has in regard to trying to address those very problems.

Is that not a serious flaw in the structures of INTERPOL and, in fact, undermines the very purpose of the organization?