Evidence of meeting #139 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was needs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of Safety and Justice Employees
They're more experienced in that type of thing.
Yes, they could use more training.
4:20 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
Thank you.
Under proposed subsection 37.3(2), it still gives:
The institutional head may determine that the inmate should remain in the unit only if the institutional head believes on reasonable grounds that allowing the inmate's reintegration into the mainstream inmate population
Should that be left in his hands, or should it go to an alternate group?
Mr. Paterson talked about oversight. I've been a policeman for 35 years, and lived in B.C. for all of those 35 years. We had the public complaints commission of the Province of British Columbia that oversaw complaints against police officers. Even though we investigated our own, they also investigated us and investigated our investigators who did the job.
Is that what you're referring to in there, and do you think there's a need for that?
When you give one person the authority to do things, it might cause problems.
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
Without saying, by the way, that even having the external oversight would fix everything else in the bill, yes, but it's not quite the same as the police complaints commissions. What we do say is that there needs to be—
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
—someone external with a decision-making authority.
Oftentimes, the external commissions for policing can make a finding but can't actually impose discipline, and so on.
At some point, the external person does need to be able to make a decision, because that is how you're going to make sure there is finally compliance and a culture of compliance grows. CSC won't want to get decided over by this body, so there will be an encouragement to actually do better in the first instance.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
November 22nd, 2018 / 4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all our witnesses for being here.
Stan, I'm going to start with you. You've mentioned the $448 million that we're putting into corrections. It's certainly a conversation we've had here a number of times, that for these SIUs to work, there has to be investment, because for your program officers and parole officers who are trying to do the programming for these offenders, there needs to be enough. There needs to be the time they need. However, we also need to make sure that everyone, including your folks and the corrections officers, are safe while they're in there.
We had even the John Howard Society saying that there still needed to be disciplinary segregation. I was actually surprised at that.
With the investments and with this legislation, do you think your folks will still be safe when they're working in the prisons?
4:25 p.m.
National President, Union of Safety and Justice Employees
Yes, I think so.
I come from an era where I was a correctional officer and we didn't have vests or anything such as that. We had the clothes on our backs.
That how most of the people I represent interact with the offenders in the institutions. I don't see many of our people thinking they will be less safe, as long, of course, as there are the correctional officers available to respond if necessary.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Okay, that's great.
Do you think it will allow you to effectively manage the offenders when they're in the SIUs?
4:25 p.m.
National President, Union of Safety and Justice Employees
Yes, I certainly do. Having worked quite a bit in administrative segregation and the hole, if you have sufficient staff you can certainly manage the risk reasonably well.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Okay. Thanks, Stan.
Ms. Frank, it's really nice to have you here, and I appreciate your expertise on the Gladue reports because the legislation legislates that the Gladue reports be taken into consideration when an offender is sent to prison.
During our study at the status of women committee, we heard those reports were misused at corrections and were resulting in increased security levels, particularly for women in prisons. The Native Women's Association is testifying on the next panel, but they had provided a brief and in that they had specified that these reports should be directed to the needs of the offenders as opposed to the perceived risk from them.
I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that.
4:25 p.m.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
I think there's a difference between the pre-sentence reports and the Gladue. A lot of people don't know the distinction between the two.
I do these reports and I think people have to be trained in how to do them. I think sometimes that's a problem.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I'll stop you though because, just to clarify, the legislation doesn't specifically mention Gladue reports. It mentions taking into account the indigenous.... I was looking for it quickly, but something about indigenous history, taking into account the intergenerational trauma or the history that person has gone through to get there.
Do you support that it would be used to assess their needs as opposed to their risk?
4:25 p.m.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
Yes, I believe that's what it was intended for. As far as risk, you'd have to ask somebody who does the pre-sentence reports, but I believe the Gladue reports would be a bridge among corrections, the people who are being sentenced and the criminal justice system.
As I said, training. It's not just in the Gladue. It's also police training. I used to teach criminal justice to college students going into law enforcement, and I also see problems with training correctional officers. Sometimes you see institutional racism. I've had a lot of clients who have had problems with guards because they didn't understand—
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I don't have much time left, and I have a very quick question again for Stan.
I know you've mentioned you believe strongly in the importance of rehabilitation to make our country safer.
Do you think these SIUs will do more for rehabilitation than the way we currently have the prison set up?
4:25 p.m.
National President, Union of Safety and Justice Employees
Absolutely. I think it'll be much better than the current system where there is very little meaningful interaction.
4:25 p.m.
National President, Union of Safety and Justice Employees
Provided the resources are there...absolutely, yes.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I keep hearing paperwork being brought up, and I'll be honest, the first thing I think of is your parole officers talking about the burden they have now with paperwork. It does concern me a little when I hear about adding more paperwork.
It can be necessary, but I know they're already quite overburdened with the amount of paperwork they have.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We're going to have to leave it there.
On behalf of the committee, I want to thank Ms. Frank, Mr. Stapleton and Mr. Paterson for their contribution to our study of Bill C-83.
With that, we'll suspend for a moment or two and re-empanel.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
I see quorum. We're back on for our second panel.
We have, from Aboriginal Legal Services, Jonathan Rudin. From Native Women's Association of Canada, we have Steven Pink and Elana Finestone. Professor Debra Parkes has joined us from wherever it is she's joining us from. It looks like British Columbia.
Given that the rule around here is that we always have technical difficulties, I'm going to ask Professor Parkes to speak first.
You will have seven minutes and we look forward to what you have to say.
4:35 p.m.
Professor Debra Parkes Professor and Chair in Feminist Legal Studies, Peter A. Allard School of Law, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
[Technical difficulty—Editor]
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
No truer words were spoken. We see you moving your lips, but we hear no sound.
Okay, we're going to go with Mr. Rudin first while we fix this technological glitch.
Mr. Rudin, you have seven minutes, please.
4:35 p.m.
Jonathan Rudin Program Director, Aboriginal Legal Services
Thank you very much.
Aboriginal Legal Services appreciates the opportunity to speak to the public safety committee today on Bill C-83—