Public Safety Committee on Feb. 25th, 2019

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I understand.

It would be good to caution the Clerk of the Privy Council to be careful about the statements he is making.

Let me go back to the combatants from the group called the Islamic State. They are now back in the country, which is a concern to Canadians. Do we have the resources we need to deal with them?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Yes, indeed we do. Those measures were laid out to a considerable extent in materials that we published during the month of December, and then subsequently in two public speeches that I have given on these issues.

There is a whole suite of measures that are available to our police and security agencies to respond to every manner of threat, including returning terrorist travellers who made the decision some years ago to go to another part of the world and associate themselves with some of the most vile behaviour that you can imagine, and now some may be thinking that they want to come back home. My instinctive reaction is that they need to shoulder the burden of responsibility for their behaviour. Our primary objective is to collect the evidence to charge and prosecute to the full extent of Canadian law.

Where that is not immediately possible, or where the collection of evidence takes time, we have other measures available to the Government of Canada and to our police and security authorities to ensure that Canadians are being kept safe. For example, we can remove passports, and we can engage in further surveillance, interrogations and investigations. There is an extensive amount of information gathering and information sharing among all of our allies to make sure that we have full and accurate information. There are no-fly listings, Criminal Code listings, terrorism peace bonds and legally authorized threat reduction measures under Canadian law.

All of that is available and is applied in the proper, professional manner by the appropriate police and security agencies that act on behalf of all Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

Mr. Dubé, you have seven minutes, please.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Minister and all the officials, thank you for being here.

I want to ask about the $3.8 million that goes to CSE, because in the debate on Bill C-59, there's been this question that keeps coming back, which is that CSE is an organization that exists under the National Defence Act, as you know. Given that a lot of these umbrella organizations are being created and that money is now coming from your department to fund them, do we arrive at a point where the government envisages changing whose authority is over that department?

Minister, with all due respect to your colleague Minister Sajjan, you seem to be taking the lead on a lot of the issues that CSE works on. I'm wondering if there ever is a concern that, when the legislative, budgetary and parliamentary agenda is being led by one minister and authorizations by another, it starts to get a little muddled in terms of the responsibilities.

Is there ever any thought over rejigging how that works within cabinet?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I think you would need to be constantly alert to the issue of national security architecture, accountability and lines of reporting to make sure that you're not in any way compromising the ability of the organizations to do their jobs or compromising the capacity to be accountable to Canadians through the appropriate parliamentary or governmental authorities.

When Bill C-59 is ultimately approved, as I hope it will be, by the Senate and becomes law, the legislation governing CSE will be a new stand-alone bill, rather than an add-on to another piece of legislation.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Yes, it wouldn't be an add-on to other legislation.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It will have its own stand-alone authority, which is the first time it will have that authority.

The policy area is obviously a shared responsibility among a number of ministers. It is a good thing that it's not just one minister who is keeping an eye on these important things. However, the policy authority with respect to cyber, for example, rests with Public Safety Canada. The operational side of it is a matter that would be of greater interest to Minister Sajjan.

You can see why you would have those two things separated: operations on one side, but policy authority on the other. That's a good policy decision.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Minister, I appreciate that.

You'll forgive me, but my time is short. I just want to flag it as something perhaps for further debate.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Yes. It's a fair comment.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I think you'll agree that the mandates are shifting significantly with new legislation.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Yes. It's a good point.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

On that note, going to the elections interference piece raised by my colleague, what I wonder about is that some of the powers that are being used or potentially will be used by CSIS and others in the plan that was put forward by you and your colleagues are going to change if and when Bill C-59 finally gets adopted.

I asked the same question of Scott Jones when he was here on our cybersecurity study. Does that mean you're then bringing everything back to the drawing board in the event that Bill C-59 gets adopted, since some of the powers that are being used aren't even clearly defined or will change under the new legislation when it gets royal assent? I'm thinking of threat disruption as an example.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I don't think that is directly relevant to the issue of foreign interference. Could you be a little more precise in what you're getting at here?

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Yes, Minister, of course.

With the announcement that was made, I believe the threat disruption powers that were first conferred by what was then Bill C-51 in the previous Parliament are one tool that CSIS may use in that event, and even with CSE's role will obviously significantly change once Bill C-59 gets royal assent. They have a large role to play in the election interference piece as well.

What happens for the whole-of-government approach if and when Bill C-59 gets royal assent, just with regard to the elections?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

One thing that Bill C-59 does with respect to the threat reduction measures is to create a very clear procedural, as well as legal and constitutional, frame that will ensure more transparency and more accountability. Exactly how the powers can be used is laid out now more explicitly in legislation than ever before.

The one major criticism of the old Bill C-51 was that the way those powers were worded in the old law implied that you could somehow exercise those powers in violation of the charter. We have clarified in the law explicitly that it is not the case, and that indeed, if and when those powers are ever exercised, they must be exercised in a manner consistent with the charter, not in violation of the charter.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I had other questions on that subject, but my time is rapidly running out and I have other matters to bring up.

A few weeks ago, you mentioned the establishment of an interim management advisory board for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. You also mentioned that a bill would be introduced, which I imagine will be done before the next elections. However, it is going to need funding.

Could you update us on those two matters? When can we expect the introduction of the bill that will make the board permanent, and is the funding enough that other oversight organizations already in place will not be adversely affected?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

We fully expect to introduce that legislation during the current session of Parliament and before the House becomes incapacitated for good electoral reasons later this year. The power to create the interim management board exists under current legislation, and we will exercise those powers in an interim way, under existing legislation, but it is important that this be a permanent change, not a temporary change. That's why we will follow up the appointment of the interim board, which as we said at the time of the announcement we hope to have accomplished by the month of April, with legislation that would make the change permanent.

The cost of that change is something that can be handled within existing resources, but obviously the future charges will be covered in the estimates put before Parliament in subsequent iterations of the estimates in the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Ms. Sahota, you have seven minutes, please.

[Ruby Sahota, Brampton North, Lib.]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go back to the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security. I commend you for creating the centre. It's well needed. We're in the middle of a cybersecurity study. Every day our hearts sink a little bit in worry about the gaps that exist currently in our framework, in our country, to be able to secure ourselves.

Of the many witnesses who have come before us, some have come from other countries, notably Israel, that are known as model countries to follow when it comes to investments they've made in this area. They have a good partnership between the private sector, academia and the government.

How do you envision the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security being able to establish that? In order to have successful protections, we need to train our young people in this area, and I believe we're lacking right now.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Ms. Sahota, I think this is a huge opportunity for Canadians. Much of what we talk about in the realm of cybercrime and cyber-threats can be pretty scary stuff. We need to be realistic about how vulnerable we are as a result of our extensive interconnectedness. All of that technology brings huge advantages, but it also brings very significant risks. We need to be very clear-eyed about the threats and the risks. When everybody is wired together, the weakest link can bring down the whole house of cards.

Our cybersecurity policy is intended to make sure that we have the systems in place to respond to that. At the same time, we should not be driven by fear. We should be driven by an imperative that we want to keep Canadians safe and also want to take advantage of the huge opportunities that exist in this new and rapidly exploding field of technology.

That is exactly what the Israelis have done. They have cybersecurity as a major national priority. They pursue it relentlessly. They invest in it relentlessly. As a result, they are among the very best in the world. In the process, they have created for Israelis thousands and thousands and thousands of some of the most interesting jobs you could ever imagine.

[Ruby Sahota]

How are we going to adopt a similar model? I don't see the academics in place. We need to invest in that area. They were talking about training their kids in cybersecurity at a kindergarten age. What role can our government play in doing that?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

We need to support science and make sure that we're supporting science that is relevant to cyber-related issues. I note that in our last couple of budgets, we have taken the level of science investment in Canada now to an all-time record high. Minister Duncan is very proud of that. She gives extensive speeches on the level of investment in Canadian science—focused, for example, on the STEM sector, on women in information technology, and on the new training program for kids learning code.

Within the cyber package, we have the beginnings of some new programs. There is a co-op education component, for example, where, to start with, we have set aside funding to encourage university students to develop their own interest in cybersecurity issues and to pursue it in a co-op education fashion where they are in academic institutions for a period of time and then work in the field for a period of time, advancing their education and expertise.

[Ruby Sahota]

Is there any money in your department to assist the building of these programs for universities or colleges?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

For that particular program, the money was set aside in the budget last year.

I believe it's in ISED.

[Malcolm Brown, Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

In ISED, yes.