Public Safety Committee on May 12th, 2016

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to our witnesses, thank you very much for being here. That was a great presentation, and Mr. Boissonneault, I appreciate hearing your personal experience. It ties in with where my questioning is going to go.

I recall one of my father's barns burned 30 plus years ago, and the local volunteer firefighters showed up and did a great job. I won't give all the details, but some of the cattle had been in the barn, they got out, and of course they weren't that good. One of the firefighters, an older businessman in the community, walked out at the end of that fire that day, and talking to him years after that, he said, “Larry, there are still times I smell burnt hair.”

I think it's that same thing you said you were feeling.

Here's my question. You talked about a data void. Is there any kind of data—this goes for you as well, Mr. Marks—out there? Obviously this situation I'm talking about happened before everybody even heard of PTSD. Is there any data that leads back to instances that firefighters, or any first responders, have had in previous years and are coming to light now?

[Paul Boissonneault]

To answer your question, Mr. Miller, right now any data that would currently exist would have to be at the auspice of a departmental-specific initiative. There's nothing required under a standard incident reporting guideline at the provincial or territorial level that would have specific information on that. I think there are groups like Tema Conter and other organizations that are trying to look back and gain information because it is so challenging, as Mr. O'Toole has said about challenges with Veterans Affairs, in finding that information. We currently have our national fire incident database project that is starting up and talking about basic standard incident reporting.

That's the tip of the iceberg to get Canadian-specific evidence-based research. What I'm suggesting is as this national action plan rolls out, there could be an avenue to start collecting data. If we have absence of data, at least there's a starting point for looking at national progress in that area. It is something that can be explored. Historically we may not be able to find it, but for certain we can at least have a good starting point in moving forward.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Mental wellness was discussed. I believe that all has to be part of it, but of course confidentiality rules, and what have you, and you have to respect that. However, in order to gain data that's important for the whole thing, how do you get that out of present firefighters or any first responders, including the military? How do you get that out of them voluntarily?

I think it would be that you can't force somebody to talk about that. Do you have any comments on how you deal with that?

[Paul Boissonneault]

I think in the fire service, though, we're definitely on the right path forward. There are certainly some other organizations, like our Department of National Defence, and you'll hear I believe from a witness this afternoon from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, where they're a little more advanced in some of the programming pieces in respect to R2MR, as an example.

Finding out what's worked in locations, getting those best practice standards, and importing that into our organizational structure and national action plan are going to be key in moving forward.

As I indicated before, there's no magic bullet solution here. You told the story about how one situation affecting one person would not necessarily affect someone else; but given someone else's personal issues or ongoing challenges, another incident that would normally seem insignificant in nature could be absolutely devastating.

Again, I think we need to look at things such as the Department of National Defence, some of the leadership pieces that are there, what has helped them make gains in changing the narrative and stigma, and working from that to make it adaptable to our organizations.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

My colleagues around the table here already talked about the difficulty with it in small communities or remote communities. In anything that you do, there is a cost associated with it, and it should be in the whole scheme of things not the issue, but with some small municipalities that I think you've worked in, it is an issue.

How do you deal with that, smaller forces?

I asked some witnesses the other day. When you have a small force, and somebody has a traumatic incident, you want to try to help them. How do you do that? How does the fire department, in this case, still operate? How do you deal with those?

[Paul Boissonneault]

Certainly, from my perception, and again I don't have all the answers, but I'm just saying that the basic concept is that if you had a national action plan that could be continued through the provincial aspects and regionalized, where necessary.... So a small department from a specific location, regardless of which province or territory you're at, can know the steps and procedures on what contact information or access to information can be given, whether there's online availability, whether it's through websites, or through communications strategies on getting the information out there.

I think some of those strategies are very cost-effective in understanding what a road map can look like.

Again, we focus at the diagnosis of PTSD, but we look at some of the other substance abuse challenges, and anxiety and depression, and other elements that are along the way. Fire chief Joe Smith from whatever community needs to understand that they have the availability to contact somebody and find out where they can get help, where the help can come from, whether it's regionalized or provincial-based, or whatever the situation is, and understand that it's part of the bigger picture.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Erskine-Smith, we have time for five minutes.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Great. Thank you to both for the presentation.

Mr. Marks, hopefully once we're through this we'll get that building code change that you're after.

My first question is on the mental wellness road map initiative from September of last year. Can you speak to whether there have been results from that, where we're at in that process, and if there's any indication of success in that road map leading us to where we are today?

[Paul Boissonneault]

I think there's success in general. As a fire chief, I spoke at the IAFF legislative assembly and it was welcomed with open arms. I think that's always a good sign right off the bat. I think that we're collaborating very well in general. From September what we established was a general terms of reference, where it fits into the bigger picture for the entire road map in general, and establishing who should sit on that committee. There's been no shortage of various organizations that want to be part of this, that want to see change. But understanding the validity of every organization and what they can offer into this process, you want an effective working group, but essentially you don't want it so big that you can never make decisions or determinations working forward.

Essentially, we want to put together a group that is educated in an advisory capacity that can help the national action plan as it moves forward from government, and Parliament in general. To say that there's a tangible takeaway, I can't necessarily provide it today that we're at step five of 10, but what I can say is we feel that we have a good group that's working together. We are very open and fluid in movement, understanding that other groups that present themselves that are vital in nature can be added where necessary to provide good information to those who are making decisions.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

So you view that as fitting in with the national strategy overall, and that will get worked as the national strategy develops?

[Paul Boissonneault]

Yes, this is simply an advisory piece to assist in moving forward. This is not to replace, replicate, or change, or do something on our own. This is to ensure that we're showing that it is a priority, that we're working hard, and putting the right people in place to give good advice to government.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

You mentioned stealing other good ideas from organizations like the armed forces. We've heard the same thing from other organizations. Ms. Damoff has suggested there are more local police associations that have developed their own mechanisms that may or may not work, and obviously some are better than others.

To both of you, in your positions, do you see grassroots successes, and are you identifying those to really try to build your own best practices?

[Scott Marks]

I think there likely are grassroots successes. There's not a week goes by that I don't get a call at my office from some group, whether they be retired police officers or within the community or within the mental health community, who have started a process on how to deal with these things. Quite frankly, there's so much interest in it now, and people moving in that direction, it gets hard to stay focused. If we start to go out and follow all those, it will take away, I think, somewhat from what we're trying to do here.

I think another key element is that what I have found certainly in talking to people who have been involved is what works for one individual doesn't necessarily work for another individual. So we've got to have that broad base of programs that are out there, and it may well be that there will be different approaches depending on different people.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Recognizing that, could I ask, if you put out a call to your associations—and I don't know what communication method you use to do this—to say, this committee is studying this and we're interested in best practices among fire associations, the results that you receive from that call, would you be able to relay that information to this committee?

[Paul Boissonneault]

Yes, absolutely. The short answer is yes.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I would appreciate that.

[Paul Boissonneault]

At the end of the day, we have, as mentioned, an executive board, but we have a national advisory council board of 27 other members, which I've indicated includes the Canadian Fallen Firefighters Foundation, the Aboriginal Firefighters Association of Canada, every province and territory amongst the Council of Canadian Fire Marshals and Fire Commissioners, and we have a very robust availability and a working relationship with the IAFF.

As alluded to in the question earlier, I did want to mention to the chair as well that the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs is a division of the International Association of Fire Chiefs, just for further reference. We are the part that makes it international, so, of course, our interest is fairly significant. But, again, it's looking at some very important things.

What I did want to highlight is some of those grassroots programs that are working are fantastic, but, again, there are different programs that may meet the needs. R2MR might be a great program in general, but maybe there's something better that works for a smaller, more remote rural location. Currently, in its current composition, R2MR is an extreme challenge for train the trainer programming, as well as cost associations to small municipalities.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

In the same way the chair asked Mr. Marks to perhaps draw on the international experience, given your affiliation with international as well, I've asked you already to draw from the grassroots, but to the extent you can also draw from the international experience and relay that information to this committee it would be much appreciated.

Thanks to you both.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you, both of you.

We're going to suspend for a moment as we get the witnesses from the chiefs of police online, and just thank our guests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'll bring us back together and thank our witnesses.

We have, from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, Steve Schnitzer and Jennifer Evans. Are you both in Saskatoon?

[Steve Schnitzer, Chair, Human Resources and Learning Committee, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police]

Yes we are.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

We're going to begin with that, and then go to the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers second, just because, technologically, it's always good to go first with you in case we lose you. We give you 10 minutes.

[Steve Schnitzer]

Good afternoon.

Members of this committee, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, CACP, expresses our sincere appreciation to speak here today and to contribute to this important discussion. By way of introduction, my name is Steve Schnitzer. I am representing the CACP as the chair of the CACP human resources and learning committee. Chief Jennifer Evans, from Peel Regional Police, is also here with me and will speak to you in a few minutes.

I have worked in policing for 30 years, and I retired in 2010 as the superintendent in charge of personnel services at the Vancouver Police Department. My role as superintendent was to lead the Vancouver police human resources, training, and professional standards sections. I currently work at the Justice Institute of British Columbia, and I am the director of the Police Academy in British Columbia. The Justice Institute of British Columbia Police Academy is responsible for the training of all municipal, transit, and first nations police recruits in the province of British Columbia.

As the chair of the CACP human resources and learning committee, I would like you to know that the mental well-being of police officers and police support staff is very much a central theme of discussion at all of our CACP committee meetings. In fact, we are video conferencing today from Saskatoon on the second day of a two-day human resources and learning committee meeting, and our discussions have almost entirely focused on wellness for police officers and support staff.

The CACP has for several years worked closely with the Mental Health Commission of Canada, and we are now collaborating with universities and academia to better understand mental health issues that first responders face. Our current president, Chief Clive Weighill, very much regrets that he is unable to appear here today, however, he shares the following, and I quote:

The CACP fully recognizes that the dynamics of policing dictates that police personnel, and other first responders, are exposed to a unique and difficult set of job-related hazards. Furthermore, we also recognize that the policing culture of needing to be strong and brave can reinforce stigma related to mental illness and it is therefore our challenge to change how we collectively treat and think about mental health problems and illnesses. Our focus, as a national organization, has been to bring police and mental health professionals together with the goal of shifting attitudes, reducing stigma, and finding new ways to address psychological health and safety in the workplace. This includes recommendations to all police services across Canada to ensure that each implements a clear and coherent mental wellness strategy.

In March 2015, Dr. Terry Coleman, a member of our human resources and learning committee, testified at the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology regarding Bill S-208, for the establishment of a Canadian commission on mental health and justice. On behalf of the CACP, Dr. Coleman advised that mental illness represents one of the top five concerns of police agencies throughout Canada. He also emphasized that police are de facto 24/7 first responders to what we refer to as a mental health crisis occurring in our communities.

I am here today on behalf of the CACP to stress to you that effective public safety and security in Canada requires healthy and resilient first responders. Unfortunately, police are experiencing increasing rates of mental health issues, and the policing community is finding it challenging to put into place mental health support systems that are effective and that look after the needs of our police officers, support staff, and their families.

In recognizing the dire need to address the issue of mental health and policing, the CACP has recently partnered with the Mental Health Commission of Canada to deliver two key national conferences on this issue. First, in March 2014, 350 delegates representing criminal justice and mental health leaders, researchers, and people with lived experience met under the theme of moving from crisis to creating fundamental change; improving interactions between police and persons with mental illness.

They discussed what works, what could be improved, and what were promising practices. They sought to find innovative ways to answer the question, how can we make these interactions safe for the person with mental illness, for police personnel, and for the communities in which we all live?

The conference highlighted the growing list of promising practices, including crisis intervention teams, police and mental health workers forming a joint response, most often in larger urban centres, as well as the hub approach, which brings together a wide range of community services, such as police, health, social services, and education, to act collaboratively as early intervenors when a person appears to be at risk.

In February 2015 the CACP and the Mental Health Commission of Canada jointly sponsored a second successful conference with 250 attendees, under the theme of mental readiness strategies for psychological health and safety in police organizations. This conference recognized that before we can best serve others, we must also look after our own. A key outcome was a call to all Canadian police services, as well as police governance authorities, to ensure that a clear and coherent mental wellness strategy is in place for all personnel. Since February 2015 the CACP human resources and learning committee has made it a focus to better understand the problems we are facing and to engage academia for more made-in-Canada research in the area of mental wellness in policing. This is being done in collaboration with the CACP Research Foundation, the Mental Health Commission of Canada, and research and academic institutions.

In fact, in January of this year I represented the CACP at the National Roundtable on Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. This round table was organized by Public Safety Canada under the leadership of Minister Goodale, and the CACP is thankful to the federal government for taking the initiative to begin this national dialogue on PTSD in first responder occupations. This round table has now resulted in a tri-service working group that will work on developing a national action plan.

A strategic approach is necessary to make meaningful change. A systems approach is also necessary to support the resources and funding necessary for first responder mental health. Finally, we need to fully understand the issues we face and provide solutions that are well researched and are proven to work.

We thank each of you for raising this important issue.

I would now like to introduce the chief of the Peel Regional Police, Jennifer Evans. Chief Evans is one of the 26 members of the CACP human resources and learning committee, and she would like to highlight some organizational wellness initiatives that the Peel Regional Police have recently implemented.

I look forward to responding to your questions.

Thank you.

[Chief Jennifer Evans, Chief, Peel Regional Police Service, Peel Regional Police]

Good afternoon.

My name is Jennifer Evans, and as Steve mentioned, I'm in my fourth year as chief of the Peel Regional Police. By way of background, we are the third-largest municipal police force in Canada and provide policing services to the 1.3 million residents of the cities of Brampton and Mississauga.

[Technical difficulty--Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

We have a technical problem. We want to be sure we're hearing you appropriately.