Public Safety Committee on Nov. 17th, 2016

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

You're aware, as you have been studying this committee's work on this particular bill, that there are those who are advocating that there should be the exact same degree of access provided to the committee of parliamentarians, in other words, unfettered access save and except for cabinet confidences.

As I try to understand the distinction between the level of access of the committee of parliamentarians and SIRC, it's that the mandates aren't the same, or they're not defined the same, and that usually provides a logical explanation as to why the degree of access may not be the same. Is that a fair summary?

[Michael Doucet]

That could be a fair summary. As I mentioned earlier, we have three mandates: the certification—

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

No, I don't need you to repeat what the mandates are. Thank you.

With regard to prescribing what have been called in the Arar report the “statutory gateways” for co-operation, we've heard from the minister that he would, I think, envision a scenario in which that's not explicitly spelled out in statute, at least in Bill C-22, and at least for now. He would rather see that develop organically between the committee of parliamentarians and SIRC. Let's spend a minute or two on that.

What does that look like? What does the memorandum of co-operation look like between the committee of parliamentarians and SIRC? Does it involve objectives? Does it involve principles? Does it involve triggers for co-operation?

[Michael Doucet]

That's a great question.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's why I asked it.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

What's your answer?

[Michael Doucet]

My answer would be that it may be premature to talk about a memorandum of understanding as to how the committee of parliamentarians and SIRC—

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

So what's in it? I don't mean to be curt, but I have very little time.

[Michael Doucet]

Okay. What's in that MOU?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Yes.

[Michael Doucet]

I think that would have to be defined once Bill C-22 is enacted.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

What would it look like? Without holding you to gospel truth, what are the kinds of things that you would envision it containing?

[Michael Doucet]

Do you want to cover that one, Charles?

[Charles Fugère, Acting Senior Counsel and Director, Security Intelligence Review Committee]

For example, we've discussed the issue of review plans being shared. That would be an issue of ensuring that as SIRC develops its review plans, there is a process built in to make sure that consultation takes place with the committee of parliamentarians to avoid that duplication. The issue of advance planning in a way that is coordinated, so that both institutions can deliver on their mandates without duplication, is something that could be involved in there.

We've noted, for example, that while there is a mechanism whereby the committee of parliamentarians will refer to SIRC situations where information was denied to it under clause 16 of the bill, there is no mechanism whereby the committee of parliamentarians has explicit language as to where they would advise SIRC of a review that they were told not to do under clause 8, for example. Determining the mechanics of how they can approach us to do that, how we can respond and advise our committee, and how they can engage on that, is something that could be part of the mechanics.

Of course, the committee will be master of its own procedures and will develop its own guidelines. Regulations may be enacted as well, by the Governor in Council. We're masters of our own procedure. There's a lot of flexibility, but those are examples of things that could be built in more easily and quickly to ease in that sort of increased co-operation early on.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thanks for that.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

I'm going to use the chair's prerogative to ask a question.

I look at SIRC and its membership, and I see people such as Chuck Strahl, Deborah Grey, and Yves Fortier. Two of these people are former parliamentarians. Their expertise would be similar to that of the parliamentarians we're appointing.

You have a budget of $2.5 million. This has a budget of $3.2 million and the potential of more expertise than SIRC would have, with $700,000's worth of smart people, with the capacities of the Governor in Council appointments being similar to those of the parliamentarians who are elected by the people of Canada. I'm trying to figure out why yours is called any more expert than the committee of parliamentarians, who have an equal capacity to hire experts and who have similar backgrounds at the executive level.

[Michael Doucet]

When I talk of expert review and talk about how SIRC carries out its function—and I certainly get the point on the different levels of funding—we have our funding base to solely look at CSIS and to dive deep in CSIS, whereas the committee of parliamentarians and the staff or the secretariat within the committee of parliamentarians are looking, at the end of the day, at 17 organizations with a national security nexus, so I think their work will be at a different level.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Because it has that horizontal capacity across all those bodies at a supra level, with commensurate expertise, could it not itself provide the horizontal review you're talking about? Just from a parliamentarian's point of view, why would we have to go to you because you have additional powers over us even though we have more money and people who are just as smart?

[Michael Doucet]

The other thing is you have to remember that, of course, SIRC has its three functions, and its quasi-judicial function, where we handle complaints against CSIS. Think of us as having three bubbles of activities and think of the committee of parliamentarians not necessarily fulfilling the certification of a report, nor handling the complaints against the intelligence agencies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

It gives them more time to do horizontal review.

[Alex Neve]

Could I just say one word on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

One word.

[Alex Neve]

I think it's a fascinating question and I think—

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I may be wrong.