Evidence of meeting #63 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pre-clearance.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joshua Paterson  Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
Meghan McDermott  Policy Officer, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
Gordon Miller  Vice-President, Rail Operations and Asset Development, Chief Safety Officer, Rocky Mountaineer
Alroy Chan  Senior Director, Corporate Development, Rocky Mountaineer

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.)) Liberal Rob Oliphant

Welcome friends. I'm calling to order the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, our 63rd meeting in the 42nd Parliament.

Pursuant to the order of reference on March 6, 2017, this is a consideration of Bill C-23, An Act respecting the preclearance of persons and goods in Canada and the United States.

This is our second meeting on Bill C-23. On Monday, as you remember, we had the minister introduce the bill, as well as officials here to ask questions. We are now continuing with witnesses for three meetings.

Welcome, Mr. Arnold, to your first time at public safety committee. We are sure you'll enjoy the experience.

Because there is a strong possibility of bells ringing at about a quarter to four for a 30-minute bell, until 4:15, and because our witnesses from the BC Civil Liberties Association have a plane to catch at 6:10, I'm going to suggest we do a couple of different things today. We'll hear from them first for their 10-minute presentation, and then we'll have questions for them. I'm hoping you'll give me five extra minutes into the 30-minute bell so we have time for questions. Then we will suspend the meeting for the vote.

I apologize to our other guests. We will be back immediately following the vote, which should be about 4:25. We'll be gone for about 35 or 40 minutes in that time. You're welcome to come and watch us vote. It's pretty exciting.

We begin with Josh Paterson and Meghan McDermott, as well as Andrea van Vugt.

Thank you for coming and joining us.

3:30 p.m.

Joshua Paterson Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for inviting us.

I think we're all agreed that customs pre-clearance is a huge benefit to Canadians, and its expansion would make those benefits available to even more Canadians and, of course, to enterprises. Nevertheless, as the BC Civil Liberties Association, we have significant reservations about the bill. Governments have the authority to conclude international agreements, but it is up to Parliament to implement them into law and, in doing so, Parliament has a duty to ensure as best as possible the constitutionality of its enactments.

We know that every year millions of people move across the border with very little incident on the whole, but laws tend to be tested and rights infringed in the unusual cases, the few cases. That the system might work most of the time is not actually an answer to whether or not a law might have negative or even unconstitutional consequences.

The first overarching matter of concern for us is that while it's often been repeated that U.S. officers will exercise these new powers under the umbrella of Canadian law, including the charter and the Canadian Human Rights Act— and all of this is a good thing—the bill's protection, to us, is unacceptably weak. This is because, in most cases, it will be impossible to obtain a remedy against the United States for violations of these human rights guarantees.

Subclause 39(3) states that U.S. officers are not crown servants under the Crown Liability and Proceedings Act, which means that Canada can't be held civilly liable under the charter or under the Canadian Human Rights Act for the actions of pre-clearance officers, even though those officers are exercising powers delegated to them by this Parliament.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I'm afraid I need to interrupt you for a moment, as the bells have rung even earlier than expected.

Do I have agreement to have the 10 minutes to have this presentation? That will give us 20 minutes to get to the vote.

May 10th, 2017 / 3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Agreed.

3:30 p.m.

Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Joshua Paterson

We would be happy to return for questioning, if you like, by video or something. We would rather not fly back for the questions.

The law also insulates the United States from most claims. You can't sue Canada. What about the U.S.? Subclause 39(1) states that civil proceedings can be brought against the United States except if the U.S. is immune from such actions under the State Immunity Act.

The State Immunity Act tells us that the U.S. is immune from practically all civil litigation and any remedies in the Canadian court or tribunal unless someone has been killed or injured. In a case where someone's rights were violated by being detained unreasonably, in an instance of discrimination, or in being searched or strip-searched unreasonably, if that person is not injured or killed, there is no legal remedy under the charter, no remedy under the Canadian Human Rights Act, no tort remedy.

It's fine to say they will be bound by the charter and by human rights laws. Of course, we earnestly hope that these officers would do their utmost to respect those laws, presuming they are adequately trained to do so, which is another issue. However, saying that a government agency or a government-delegated agency is bound is never enough. It has to be backed up by a remedy to be effective, and the only power Canada has to ensure compliance is persuasion... the positive relationship. That isn't meaningless, but neither is it adequate as a mechanism to protect the fundamental rights of Canadians. It is very problematic for the crown, in short, to delegate coercive power to any third party, including foreign agents, while shielding both itself and the foreign government from liability for the exercise of that power.

We have a lot of concerns with this bill. That's an overarching one. We're not going to take them all up with you. I want to talk a little bit about strip searches before my colleague addresses you.

Strip searches are an area in which charter violations often occur in Canadian policing. According to this bill, strip searches can be conducted if there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the search is necessary in order to conduct pre-clearance, or that the traveller is concealing anything that's a danger to life and safety.

The minister stated that the changes with regard to strip searches are small changes. He said to you the other day that U.S. officers can conduct such searches only if a Canadian counterpart were not available, and that, generally, Canadians would conduct them. It would be exceedingly rare, I think he said, for a Canadian not to be available.

With great respect to the minister, that isn't the full picture. The bill gives U.S. officers the brand new power to conduct a strip search if no Canadian officer is available within a reasonable time. We don't take issue with the term “reasonable” here today. However, we are deeply opposed to these provisions: if no officer is available within a reasonable time, or if the Canadian officer doesn't arrive within a specified period.

Given that the pre-clearance officers can detain people, can restrain them if necessary to protect themselves, can use force if necessary to protect life and limb, we can imagine no justification for the U.S. being able to perform the search rather than simply waiting.

The fact that a Canadian officer may be waylaid on the way to the search, that the officer may be busy doing something else, that the officer may make an appointment and not be able to make it because something else comes up, should not be a reason for this Parliament to give U.S. officers the state power to performing strip searches.

In addition—and, incredibly, from our perspective—the U.S. officer also has the authority to conduct the search if a Canadian officer declines to conduct it. This gives us a situation where Canada, having been called and having shown up, says, “You know what? I don't think there are grounds.” Why on earth does this bill give American agents the power to conduct that search anyway, and then to do so in a framework where there is no remedy against them?

We know that Canadian police officers with the best of intentions and the best of training mess up strip searches frequently. There's a lot of case law on that. The courts have said that this is one of the most intimate violations that the state can perform. We confer the power on the state to do that in very limited circumstances. Our argument is that there is no circumstance under which Canada, the crown, ought to give this power to someone else. It is just too much of an imposition, and there's nothing to justify it. There's no reason why these American officers, in our view, could not wait.

I'll pass it over now to my friend.

3:35 p.m.

Meghan McDermott Policy Officer, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Thank you.

I am going to speak about our opposition to the changes about the right to withdraw. We don't believe that the changes in the new bill would allow a traveller in Canada to meaningfully withdraw. Right now, the worst that can happen if somebody doesn't answer questions is that they can be ordered to leave the area. They can withdraw at any time, and there is also a presumption in the act against suspicion if they're not answering questions. If they do answer questions, there is a requirement to answer them truthfully.

With the changes to the bill, travellers wishing to withdraw are now going to face a new set of questions about why they want to leave. While it's true that there is a limit that they cannot be unreasonably delayed, we do not believe that this is a sufficient limit. It is imprecise. Furthermore, our position is that if somebody is not free to go because they're being asked questions, they are being arbitrarily detained, even if the bill itself doesn't say that.

Section 9 of the charter guarantees the right not to be arbitrarily detained, and under Canadian law, investigative detention is permitted only when there is a reasonable suspicion that a particular individual is implicated in a criminal activity under investigation, and then only if absolutely necessary, for the minimal time possible.

This bill already provides grounds to detain somebody if there is suspicion of an offence. We have some concerns about that, which we speak about in our written submission. However, we believe that this power, in and of itself, is enough to protect border security. We are unaware of any evidence that would necessitate these changes and make people possibly be arbitrarily detained and coerced to give a statement in Canada.

We do have a number of recommendations about how to uphold the right to withdraw in the bill. One is to add a provision that reflects the current presumption against suspicion. That's in subsection 16(3) of the existing act. We'd like to see that in the bill. We'd also like to see a removal of the travellers' obligations to answer questions and to follow directions if they chose to withdraw.

We'd like to have the language adjusted in proposed section 32 so that U.S. pre-clearance officers are able to interfere with a traveller's right to withdraw from a pre-clearance area only if they suspect, on reasonable grounds, that the traveller has provided false or deceptive information or has obstructed an officer—which are the current powers they have—or has committed an offence under an act of Parliament in relation to their presence in the pre-clearance area and in their travel.

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

We have time for one question each, if people have quick questions, and then we're going to go.

Does somebody have a quick question? We'll give you one, and we'll give the NDP one.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

I want to thank you for coming.

Josh, you and I spoke previously on the phone. One of the things we spoke about was that you recognized that this bill is tied to an agreement that has already been signed. You've talked about a lot of things that you don't like about the bill, but I wonder if you could talk about recognizing that we are limited in how much we can change this, in terms of continuing to have pre-clearance, because then our option is to go through the whole thing in the United States, which wouldn't give us the same protections we'd have here.

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Joshua Paterson

I don't understand the options as being having pre-clearance or continuing to have pre-clearance. I have not heard any indication from the government that, had none of this happened, pre-clearance would have been withdrawn. As we understand it, this was a condition precedent to getting new pre-clearance at Quebec City and for cargo, none of which we quibble with as desirable things.

All that being said, the executive or the Queen is free to make her agreements, but Parliament isn't bound to do the bidding of the executive. Parliament is free, and in fact obligated, in fashioning laws, to ensure that they respect the charter. If the executive has concluded an agreement that, in its particulars, requires Canada to violate its own constitutional principles, or at least to create an environment in which those violations may be more likely, I think Parliament needs to take that very seriously.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I'm going to end that one there.

To the Conservatives, do you have a quick question?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

It's almost the same as Pam's question, but just giving you a chance....

If there are specific amendments that would remediate some of the concerns you have, it would be helpful to table those, if not now, then certainly as we continue to contemplate the bill.

Is there anything on your mind right now?

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Joshua Paterson

Sure, we would be happy to do that.

As a principal matter, we think it should be amended so that there isn't a power for a strip search. The agreement may say things about that. The minister himself has said he thinks it would be exceedingly rare that there wouldn't be a Canadian around. In that exceedingly rare circumstance, we think the Americans can wait.

We doubt, quite frankly, as a matter of international relations, whether there would be a huge conflagration with the United States because we tweaked the implementation. We would hope not, and we would hope that the good relationship the government is fashioning would help us through some of those things.

We think that—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I need to end you there.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thanks.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

If you have any suggestions for written follow-up, you could send them to us.

Monsieur Dubé.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Thank you, Chair.

Just very quickly, I had the opportunity on Monday to ask officials if there were any sort of formal list, or any codification of who was giving charter training to U.S. agents. The minister's answer was CBSA and others, which, quite frankly, given the emphasis put on training, is rather unclear.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on having something formal, in terms of a list or anything specific—more details, in other words—for us and the public, as to what training is being offered in order to ensure charter compliance.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Joshua Paterson

We recognize that may not be a matter for the act or even for regulations, but, for policy, we think that the training is critically important. I mean, Canadian officers who get steeped in this stuff get it wrong.

We don't want several hours of training from CBSA. We don't necessarily have the institution to give you the curriculum handy, but we do think that some real thought needs to be given to the kind of training that's provided, that it ought to be provided by a police academy or an accredited educational institution, and that it needs to be ongoing. Laws change, the way the charter is interpreted changes, so it can't just be that these American officers get their training and off they go.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I need to end that there folks. We have 17 minutes to get to the vote.

I would ask that you defend me in front of the whips. Tell them we had guests from Vancouver with us.

We will return. They will take care of you.

We're suspending; we're not adjourning.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Folks, we'll call the meeting back to order with reduced quorum so that we can hear from witnesses in case we have bells again. To be fair to our witnesses—and on behalf of our institution, I apologize—we will be operating under reduced quorum. We can't have a vote, which is fine, but we can have witness testimony.

I believe we have a 30-minute bell. Because we're at reduced quorum, we can't even vote with unanimous consent. I believe we need to suspend the meeting again. We don't have the ability to continue the meeting.

To the witnesses, if this is a 30-minute bell, we should be back at 5:05 p.m. If you don't mind staying, we will try again.

Mr. Picard.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC

Mr. Chair, can I suggest that if we do have votes and votes and votes, we might consider making arrangements for the panel to come back later on? I think the whole committee does want to hear from them. If possible, perhaps you could take the proper measures to inform them that this is not lost, that we would like to hear from them.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Yes. I don't need to repeat that.

4:25 p.m.

Gordon Miller Vice-President, Rail Operations and Asset Development, Chief Safety Officer, Rocky Mountaineer

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Mr. Arseneault.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Chair, but we need unanimous consent if we want to continue for 10 minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Right.