Public Safety Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2017

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Could we get an undertaking from you and the department to provide written examples of what kind of changes would be made with regard to these regulatory changes, and why we would have to change the manner in which the information would be collected? Or perhaps even now you could give us some examples.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Martin, could you comment?

[Martin Bolduc]

Yes.

If I may, the way it has been worded is to give us the flexibility to determine in what fashion an air carrier would provide the information to CBSA, and what format: how far ahead of the flight's departure from Canada? It gives us the flexibility to be able to engage with airlines to be able to determine that.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Let me understand that correctly, though. Does that mean that as soon as someone buys a plane ticket, if you so chose through regulatory changes, the carrier could provide a passenger manifest within months, even, of a departure?

[Martin Bolduc]

They wouldn't be able to do that, Monsieur Dubé, because they wouldn't have the information. Bear in mind that the information that is gathered under Bill C-21 and, as the minister said, page 2 of the passport, is provided by the traveller. So when you go online to check in and provide your passport information, your name, etc., or you're at a kiosk at an airport or at the check-in counter, that's the time when that information becomes available to the airline, not before that.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

And there are existing limits about how early or late you can check in.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

What's an example of respecting the circumstances in which information may be collected? What kind of regulatory change do we see with regard to that?

[Martin Bolduc]

I'm looking at my colleagues here.

Monsieur Lawrence.

[Andrew Lawrence, Acting Executive Director, Traveller Program Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency]

The regime is set up to regulate the timing, the manner, and the circumstances. A good example would be that the timing would be upon entry to the United States; the manner would be reciprocal electronic exchange of entry information; and the circumstances would be at the land border. It gives the flexibility within regulation to stipulate how the information is collected, and to tailor the collection to be seamless and to work in all modes, whether it's by train, plane, automobile, or vessel.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

I have just one last question for you, Minister, before my time runs out. You talk about using this information to track down potentially radicalized individuals. Given that the passport does contain information such as nationality and citizenship, is there not a concern, when we see things like Mr. Trump's travel ban and some of the profiling that's happened at the border, that this information, though it may already be provided and very basic, could be used to profile certain individuals who might be leaving the country?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It will be very challenging to answer that in five seconds, but if you can do it in five seconds—

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

One short sentence might be helpful.

This information is for the purposes of Canadian border officers to pursue their responsibilities, and they are guided by a whole range of safeguards, including the Charter of Rights.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Monsieur Dubé.

Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today, and thanks to everyone else as well.

Minister, I am from London, Ontario, as you know. Strathroy is about a 20-minute drive from London. I was happy to hear you mention Strathroy in your opening remarks.

I wonder if you could talk about Bill C-21 in the context of the bill serving, as I think it does, as another tool that this country has to combat terror and radicalization.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

One of the serious issues the world is struggling with is those who travel internationally for the purpose of endangering international air travel, or to get to another part of the world where they intend to engage in terror-related activities. At the moment, we have no systematic way to determine when a person has left the country. We collect that information on foreign nationals. We collect that information on permanent residents, but not on those who are Canadian citizens. So there's a big hole in our data collection system.

It's very useful for police and security services to be able to identify when people have left the country. If there is a suspicion about the activity that individuals may be engaged in, the police authorities and the security authorities will at least have that extra piece of information that says they are no longer in Canada. There's a lot more to the process of dealing with travellers who would either endanger air transportation or try to get to a part of the world where they intend to engage in terrorist activity, but knowing where they are is a critical piece of information.

There's another element too. When a person is attempting to board an aircraft, you have those precious few minutes or hours between the time the manifest is complete and the plane is about to take off. For police and security authorities, if they have sufficient grounds to believe that this is a dangerous traveller who could put that aircraft in danger, or who would be heading to a part of the world to engage in terrorist activity, presuming they have the information that says they are a risk, having the information that they're about to get on an airplane is very useful.

If they have the legal authority, they can take the appropriate action to prevent that person from getting on the airplane. But first of all, they have to know: are they trying to get on an airplane? At the moment, we don't have that information. With Bill C-21, we will know if an individual is trying to get on an airplane, and then, with the other legal authorities in place, police or security officers would be able to take the appropriate action.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Would you or anyone at the table be able to comment on whether the previous government attempted to bring a similar measure forward in terms of collecting exit data? Your explanation shows that this is a genuine and very legitimate tool when it comes to this country's national security.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I don't know what the internal efforts were, Mr. Fragiskatos, but I can tell you that it was an active subject of discussion between Canada and the United States when I first became the minister. So it wasn't a new topic that I raised in the fall of 2015, it was a subject matter that was already under discussion between Canada and the U.S. I think both countries had decided this would be a good thing to do, and the apparatus was beginning to roll forward.

Is there any more history to it than that, Martin?

[Martin Bolduc]

It was a commitment under Beyond the Border that both countries would have an entry/exit system.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In your opening remarks, Minister, you mentioned privacy protection clauses. Could you expand on that? I think there is some concern that privacy matters are at stake, but I think there are safeguards here to guard against—

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

There are several safeguards, including, number one, the nature of the information. It is very basic data, and it's data that people already share. If you're crossing into the United States, you show your passport. What this will add is the provision that this information will then automatically come back to the CBSA too. You've already told the Americans, so CBSA will have the data that would say this individual left Canada at this time at this border crossing. That's safeguard number one, the nature of the information.

Safeguard number two is the relationship we've developed with the Privacy Commissioner. In all of these measures, whether it's for this or Bill C-23 or Bill C-59, we have an ongoing dialogue with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner. He comments on areas where we could improve, where he sees problems, where he would like to see things changed, and all of that advice is taken very seriously in crafting both the law and the regulations.

There are privacy impact assessments that are required to be done. The ones that have been done so far on this initiative are already on the website. Once the legislation is passed and we actually have the legal framework, we will produce a new privacy impact assessment that will be made public to satisfy the requirements of the Privacy Commissioner. There will also be written agreements between the relevant Canadian departments and between Canada and the U.S., which will detail the way the information will be managed and safeguarded, what the privacy protection clauses need to be, and the mechanisms for addressing any potential problems. That will all be laid out in agreements governing—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and CBSA staff.

Just to help Mr. Fragiskatos with the answer to his question, of course I want to thank the minister for bringing this legislation forward, but like much of the other important trade work that has happened, it started with the previous government. That's pretty clear on where it actually started.

I'm looking forward to working with you and—

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

A good portion of it started with the previous previous government, so....

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Well, there you go. There's a good example of working together on the common good, isn't it?

I want to ask a couple of questions, Mr. Minister. We know that CBSA inspects goods coming into the country. With the new Bill C-21 provisions to deal with exports and inspections of those, how does CBSA envision carrying out the inspections of exports?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Martin, would you like to comment?