Public Safety Committee on Nov. 21st, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I call the meeting to order.

Ladies and gentlemen, let's commence with meeting number 85 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. For the first hour we have two witnesses. We have, from the Métis National Council, Dale LeClair, chief of staff, and from the Assembly of First Nations, we have Terry Teegee, regional chief.

Unless you have an agreement between you, I'll just call you in order.

Go ahead. Mr. LeClair.

[Dale LeClair, Chief of Staff, Métis National Council]

Good morning, and thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a real pleasure to be before the committee to talk about correctional issues. I'm extremely pleased that I have my colleague here from the AFN, the regional chief, newly elected and raring to go and working hard for the nation.

This morning I've not really prepared a whole lot of discussion in regard to formal notes, but I just wanted to have an open discussion and hopefully some good questions with regard to the treatment of indigenous offenders in the system in terms of their care and custody and conditional release.

I did want to let the committee know that I was a correctional executive for 10 years and was the primary architect of the national healing lodge strategy, as well as the Pathways strategy within, as well as others, including the national elders advisory committee.

This is an opportunity for me this morning to look back. It's been about 12 years since I left the service, and I'm trying to gauge how well those projects and initiatives worked. At the time, when I was in the service, there were only 1,400 indigenous offenders in the system. The issues they faced were obviously the same issues that they face today in regard to higher recidivism rates, higher classifications within the prison system, primarily being at high risk or medium risk, and not cascading through the system.

As part of the initiative, we certainly felt that under the new legislation at that time, under sections 81 and 84, there were some opportunities to engage the indigenous community—or at that time, the aboriginal community—and get them fully engaged in both the correctional aspect of housing and working with indigenous offenders, as well as doing the correctional release stuff, which was being looked after by the National Parole Board and the elder hearings.

I'm not surprised that the correctional service moved down a road to fully implement specific programs for men and women who find themselves in the correctional system. At that time, 12 or 14 years ago, it was very difficult for offenders to find themselves on a clean path, a well path, a healthy path out of prisons.

We took the initiative; I want to talk about how that initiative seems to have worked, but it seems to have not affected the flow in and out of prisons for indigenous people. The development of the healing lodge concept was really about moving high-risk offenders and cascading them through the system and getting them into community facilities such as Pê Sâkâstêw or Okimaw Ohci or Stan Daniels in Edmonton, and giving the first nations and Métis and Inuit communities the ability to truly deal with the unique issues that were faced by indigenous people and that continue to be faced by indigenous people.

Over the 10-year span when we started the program, we found success, but they were small successes, because in the system we were still having difficulty trying to understand indigenous issues, whether they were in the community or whether they were on the streets of Vancouver. There were the overwhelming issues of mental health, the overwhelming issues of growing up in a system that was foreign to them.

We did a study around 2000 that demonstrated that 95% of all men and women in the correctional system came through foster care. Look at the correlation in their developmental growth that was leading them down that road to what the second major issue is, which is that 75% to 80% of the crime being committed by indigenous people was under the influence of alcohol or drugs. It was a continuum of issues leading them into the criminal justice system, then through the courts, and then eventually into the prison system.

Corrections isn't about just corrections—this was our philosophy. Corrections is about what leads you to the road. It leads you down that road and into the prison system, and to a time when you leave that system.

Corrections is supposed to be about rehabilitation. It's supposed to be. I suspect it depends on which side of the coin you're on. It's also about incarceration. There has to be a better balance, a better understanding. I would say that within the context of indigenous issues and the Supreme Court v. Daniels, there are conditions and identifiable issues that could be dealt with in a much larger and much broader perspective. Corrections is only one component of the justice system.

You have to start at the beginning. You have to understand as a lawyer specialized in criminal law that there are conditions that lead people down the road. In today's society, we're now talking about reconciliation, getting healthier communities, engaging communities. You're talking with us about nation to nation and how we can truly address those issues. We've got to continue.

I won't sit here and bash the correctional system. The system is run by people. It's about people like you and me. I thought about something this morning: we're a long way from Millhaven. We're a long way in this room from Pê Sâkâstêw. What brought you to this table, and why is it such a short road for indigenous people to another table behind bars? We've got to think about that. We're got to deal with the best issues.

If this committee is looking at a study of what to do, look at the entire system. Government has to begin to address the issues of what effective indigenous, Métis, Inuit, first nation child care looks like, and maybe they will. I believe Minister Philpott is going to be pulling us all together in the new year to talk about building effective child and family services.

If those aren't there, the jails fill up. I remember writing in 2000, when there were 1,700 offenders, that by this time there would be 4,000, and I'm sad to say that there are 4,000. The systems have to change. It's my hope that this committee will look at what leads them there and what we can do for them, because I think the healing lodge program proved to be very successful for those who were really getting onto that healing path.

For the system within the medium- and high-security facilities, we created a program called Pathways. We tried to segregate indigenous offenders from the general population and get the elders and the programs that specifically target the issues faced by indigenous men and women.

I think there's a whole lot to dialogue about. We should have more that just 10 minutes. Obviously you have an important role to play here. You have to ask important questions. Open your mind to the entire system. I think the government as a whole and Canadians are moving toward a much more open reconciliation dialogue with indigenous people. I think our communities have some, not all, of the solutions. I think we just have to work together and define the path we need to be on. I don't want the road to be that short for our youth.

Terry and I were talking a little earlier about how our youth population is growing. We're the fastest-growing population in the country. I don't know what their future will be. Unfortunately, the reality is the future for some of them is going to be in penitentiaries, and we've got to stop that. We've got to figure out how we stop that, and it's got to be a more holistic view.

I look forward to questions. There's so much to talk about. There are so many things to do. I'll leave it at that and I'll turn it over to my colleague, Terry, the regional chief.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. LeClair.

One of the peculiarities of the committee system is that you have to address it through the chair.

[Dale LeClair]

That's right.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It's peculiar, but it is what it is.

Go ahead, Mr. Teegee.

[Terry Teegee, Regional Chief, Assembly of First Nations]

[Witness speaks in an aboriginal language]

First of all, I want to acknowledge that we are on unceded territory of the Algonquin people.

My name is Terry Teegee. My hereditary chief name is Maxweeum Tsimghee, Wolf with a White Spot on the Head. I'm the newly elected regional chief of the British Columbia Assembly of First Nations.

I want to acknowledge the committee. [Witness speaks in an aboriginal language]

Thank you for allowing me and my colleague, Dale LeClair, to speak to you today to give you an overview of how the correctional system relates to the indigenous and aboriginal people across this country and of the disproportionate number of first nations people within the correctional system.

I want to provide a brief overview. Considering that we only have 10 minutes, I'll try to be as brief as I can and go through some of the stats that Dale already laid out for you.

The fact remains that we're only 4% of the population in this country, yet we represent about 24% of all inmates in the correctional system in Canada. That's very disproportionate compared to the rest of the population.

Over the years, during Harper's Conservative government, the total prison population increased substantially, and first nations and indigenous people in this country comprised the vast majority. These statistics have all but remained, in spite of the promise of policy and legislative changes and of a nation-to-nation relationship founded upon the rights articulated in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, our constitutionally enshrined indigenous rights, and our recognized inherent title to the lands.

The reason I bring that up is that the dislocation of our people from off our lands really affects our place in society. We've seen that our displacement really affects our health. It affects our ability to be gainfully employed, participate in society as members of Canada, and create a life that is fulfilling. Our people haven't participated in the economy, and that's directly related to how we're affected with regard to the incarceration of many of our people.

The incarceration rate of our women has increased by 112% over the last decade. The increase has been attributed to many criminal laws, well over 30, that increase the punishment for various crimes, especially for small, petty crimes whereby this vicious cycle continues.

Like my counterpart here, Dale, we're seeing this vicious cycle with many of our people within the judicial system. We're here to break that cycle. Part of breaking the cycle is to have restorative justice and to look at alternative justice systems that are more culturally appropriate.

Finding restorative justice also means rehabilitation. Part of the solution, as we've been stating for many years, is that there needs to be more resources for many of our people to have restorative justice and rehabilitation.

In many jurisdictions across the country there is a lack of hard statistics and a lack of looking at what exactly the problem is in some of the jurisdictions. For example, in Saskatchewan there is an inability to share statistics with regard to our indigenous people, and that needs to change.

I think I'll just leave it at that. My counterpart Dale went over some of the issues as to why many of our people are in the judicial system.

Part of the problem, though, is that once they are incarcerated or on probation, indigenous persons must have access to resources to ensure their successful rehabilitation and reintegration into society. It's not only reintegration into general society, but back into the community. I think that's what really is needed here. When many of our people come back to our reserves, they need to be placed in a setting that is culturally appropriate so as to be reintegrated into our communities.

Dozens of conditions are imposed on individuals. In British Columbia today, 40% of criminal court matters are now attributed to the administration of justice, offences that include breaching of conditions of bail and/or probation. In B.C., my jurisdiction, the court system is failing the indigenous people. The court system is lacking the number of judges needed to look at all the cases within the province of B.C. I know this is the case not just in British Columbia but in other jurisdictions across the country. This is another case of a vicious cycle, whereby many of our people continue to return into the judicial system and are brought back to the many jails in this country.

When it comes to restorative justice, there have been many reports, including the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's. Among the recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, if you have one of those books—and perhaps we should provide some of them to you—we have the calls to action from number 30 to number 42, in which there are many recommendations to change the judicial system, to break the cycle, to provide to many of our community members resources for the mental health of our people, as well as to deal with such problems as FASD and with the rehabilitation of our people to integrate them back into society and back into our communities.

I want to leave it with you to look at the many reports. Some are international and relate to the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples; some relate to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. We all know about the 94 calls to action and the effects of the residential school system, as well as about the effects of colonialism and why many of our people are living with the legacy of colonialism and how it relates to the effects upon our people who have been taken off our lands, who aren't participating fully within society and our communities, how it has broken up many of our families, and also, as Dale said, how it has led to many of our children having been taken away.

We've seen the vast majority of our children taken into the family care system. We've never seen these high numbers before, and there's a direct correlation between the foster care system and the judicial system. We have to prevent this from occurring, see the devolution of the child care system into our jurisdictions, and make sure that preventive measures are put in place during the lives of our children to ensure that they stay within the community. I think these form part of the preventive measures. Not only prevention but also rehabilitation is critical to decreasing the numbers of indigenous people in the judicial system and in incarceration.

I just want to leave it at that.

We have to do something. It's quite plain to see that we've seen so many reports, provincial reports and federal reports, about the disproportionate numbers of indigenous people incarcerated into the system, so thank you, committee. I certainly hope to work with you and talk to you once again. As my counterpart said, we could talk about this all day just to scratch the surface, and 10 minutes doesn't give justice to our people, so I look forward to working with you some more and making changes for the betterment of our indigenous people.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Teegee.

Our first questioner is Ms. Dabrusin.

You have seven minutes, please.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank both of you. You're right that there's a lot to cover. I would like to say I carry the calls to action on my phone, but I would really appreciate it if I could get a paper copy. It would be easier to flip through. I will be referring back to some of them right now.

I want to start with something that you mentioned, because it's been coming up a fair bit: what are the resources that we need to help get people who are leaving prison back into their communities? I was looking through the Spirit Matters report and some other places. There seemed to be two specific issues. One is about going back to reserves, but the other is in the urban context.

Could you help us to think about what resources we need?

[Dale LeClair]

I'll start.

If you take a look at the family dynamics of coming from a community where you're charged, obviously you go back to the city by which you were charged and sentenced. In many regards, for many years, and I think still, the system tries to connect men and women who are in prison with their families and connect them back to their communities. I think the problem with going back to reserves or the Métis communities in the north is that it's a little more difficult because of the disconnection the individual has in their home community. That's always been one of the major issues. Somebody will identify themself as coming from Whitefish Lake First Nation, but they haven't been there since they were a kid, because they were taken out.

In prison, the correctional system tries to reconnect them to who they are and with their spirituality. We have the elders, and they do wonderful work. We have programs that are oriented for and from first nations instructors, Métis instructors, and so on. There is a real desire for men to connect back.

The problem is that most times they're rejected. Whitefish doesn't.... They know the name, but they don't know anything else. I think some work within the community is needed in understanding and providing resources in the community to understand the correctional system better and provide some capacity, whether it's through justice workers, community parole, or community case management officers. A lot more work has to be done.

Section 84—I think it's 84—of the act allows for this community reintegration, parole services, and case management in the community, but I don't think the Correctional Service of Canada has the financial ability to make those connections.

There's a disconnection between the services work and the work that's done by the parole board, even if it's done within what they refer to as “elder hearings”. There has to be a better connection between that, the offender, the national Parole Board, and the community.

Urban issues create a much greater issue. Again, I know places like.... You're going to speak with Al Benson today, I think just right after us. He provides a service that's urban, the Stan Daniels centre, and he's done a remarkable job of integrating. I think they need more dollars and cents for reintegration programs, connecting with work, connecting with health services, and so on, and having the ability to bring family there and connect with family again.

I'll finish with this. When we built Ochichakkosipi in Manitoba, a healing lodge, one of the main concepts that sort of got lost as we got in, but was fundamental to the program, was bringing family members to the facility. We had family homes, and they were to integrate with the offender as they were transitioning out, so they'd learn together. The regional chief talks about being on conditional release. Sometimes if an offender has a no-alcohol condition and he goes around even a sniff of alcohol, there's an opportunity to bring him back. You're now healing the offender, but now you've got to go back in the community and heal the community as well.

I think resources like that need to be reinforced and provided to communities, both urban and in community.

[Terry Teegee]

I can only really speak from experience, just as Dale was talking about his experience earlier.

In British Columbia, we have alternative justice courts. There are approximately four or five in British Columbia. I should also mention that I have the justice portfolio for BCAFN and I'm also the tribal chief of the Carrier Sekani Tribal Council. One of the things that we're doing at urban centres such as Prince George—and I know it's happening in New Westminster and on Vancouver Island—is looking at alternative courts. Those court systems need to be resources. They're looking at an alternative justice in which elders are laying out the punishment, if you will, or the restorative justice. We need things like that.

In the precincts of Prince George, there needs to be a stronger relationship between the indigenous communities and the RCMP to better understand why many of our people are being incarcerated and prevent some of those issues. I had the luxury of meeting Brenda Butterworth-Carr. As a matter of fact, we worked with her and really changed that relationship between the indigenous people and the superintendent of Prince George. She has now become the lead RCMP person in British Columbia, and she worked out here in Ottawa, so there's another relationship whereby we can perhaps prevent many of our people from coming into jails.

Then the direct connection with foster children and the child care system needs to change, and we're trying to change that. We've never seen so many children in the foster care system.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I only have half a minute, so I'm just going to jump in quickly, because I think we'll get back to that.

The Spirit Matters report suggested that the Correctional Service of Canada should create the position of a deputy commissioner for aboriginal corrections, which hasn't been done. I wonder if you can tell me—you have 20 seconds—to what extent that is still a priority.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Be brief, please.

[Dale LeClair]

You go ahead.

[Terry Teegee]

I would think so. Anything that would assist and help indigenous people in regard to making changes and perhaps implementing policy changes would assist our cause.

[Dale LeClair]

Really quickly, that's been a request for the last 30 years. It's been out there, and correctional investigators and others have referred to it. National leaders have reinforced it. I think it's a very important position and focus to be created, but more than just creating the commissioner is to begin to pull aside and put some real dollars behind it, so that more work.... I want to end with this. In my time it was 1,400 to 1,700 incarcerated. Now it's 4,000, and it's going to go to 4,000 or 5,000. More resources and more specific focus and direction are needed. A commissioner who's focused on that mandate and has the ability to do what we started with the healing lodge programs and some of the community reintegration programs, I think, is fundamental to the ask.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin, and I compliment you, Mr. LeClair, on turning 20 seconds into a minute and a half.

Mr. Motz, you have seven minutes, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for being here today. We appreciate it.

One of the themes for me as we've gone through this particular study is that there is no disputing the numbers, the disproportionate numbers of indigenous peoples in our systems. My question has always been, “Why?” We know that there are the restorative justice and alternative justice programs that have, depending on the individual, varying degrees of success.

I believe that generally the system is working toward improving the care of indigenous peoples who are in custody and then helping them to integrate into the community. I know there are such points there, but my question keeps going back to the issue of the numbers that keep increasing, and it's not always reoffenders. There are so many new ones coming in.

Therefore, my first question to you, Chief Teegee, in your new role, is where do you want to go with making the difference on the front end with your youth and your communities so that those who might find themselves in conflict with the law work toward improving so that they aren't going to be one of those stats coming forward?

Mr. LeClair, I'll ask you the same question. I'm always intrigued to hear your perspectives on what should be done. Sir, you are in a position to do something about that, and I'd really be interested to see how we play that forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Go ahead, Mr. Teegee.

[Terry Teegee]

I think the solution here, or the opportunity for me to make change, really comes back to the community. It comes back to our indigenous communities, where many of the systems are broken. To really make change here, there are going to have to be cross-jurisdictional changes within the system. If you look at our communities, there is a substantial amount of poverty. As soon as you have poverty, there is a direct relation to incarceration and laws being broken.

Really, you have to look at the root of the problem where, as I said before, there is colonialism, the legacy of the residential school system. We have to intervene somewhere. My purview involves the economic development of many of our communities, where we're fully involved with the resources and the development of many of our economies in our communities, which provides more resources to prevent many of these issues from happening, and it provides more resources so we can bring many of our children back to their communities.

Right now, the children in the foster child care system outnumber the residential school system number at its highest point. We have to get those children back to their communities to prevent many of these issues from happening.

Part of the solution, too, is education. There needs to be culturally appropriate education for our children, not only in the public school system but back in our communities. If we see graduation rates as low as 40%, compared to 80% to 90% for the general population, there is a problem. If we see children are not graduating or are not fulfilling their obligations as learners within the public school system, perhaps the public school system is the problem.

Really, as soon as you open this box, you see that there are many problems with this whole system. As you look at this Pandora's box and start scraping the surface, you can see what the problems are within the system of not only provincial jurisdiction, but also federal jurisdiction.

What I would say is to make changes. Look at all those issues related to economic development, education, and the ability for our children to participate in alternative places, such as being involved in sports, which is a big deterrent to having our children or our young teenagers incarcerated.

If you look at the North American Indigenous Games, which took place recently in Toronto—and I just found this out yesterday from Grand Chief Wilton Littlechild, who is one of the writers of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples—you will see that six months before the games and six months after the games there was a definite decrease in the number of offences in some of our communities. I think that's really telling in regard to our children having the opportunities to participate. That's one of the success stories of the North American Indigenous Games and other things we need to do.

In the next three years, that's what I would like to see.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Mr. LeClair, you have one minute that you may want to extend to two and a half or three. I'm not sure.

[Dale LeClair]

I think the regional chief has hit all the marks. It's really about where Canada is in its society.

If you had asked me 15 years ago whether we were truly going to be in a reconciliation environment with indigenous people in this country, I would have said that you were crazy. I grew up in a community where we faced racism, misunderstanding, and this sort of thing all the time.

I think we've broken from the shackles of that, and I'm really proud of that. I think if this committee and this country as a whole, in a non-partisan way, begin to adapt and to look at the primary issues that we face in our communities, and engage and become part of that full dialogue about wellness in our communities.... It starts with discussions around child and family services, with discussions about poverty, and with discussions about being empowered and the relationship that we have.

I know I have only a minute, and I have—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You haven't got a minute anymore.

[Dale LeClair]

Okay.

I think it's really about that. Let's get ourselves into a true reconciliation framework and let's look closely at the real issues that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission talked about. Let's talk about the relationship that we have and about empowering indigenous groups such as ourselves to truly move away from the colonial model.

I have lots more, Mr. Chair, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I can see that running the clock is going to be a challenge. Possibly I should switch to a sundial.

Mr. Dubé is next.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

One of you made a point about the lack of statistics.

I am wondering if that could be elaborated on with regard to what specific information is missing. If we want to develop policy, we need to get a better sense of this stuff. That was mentioned, and I didn't quite catch what exactly we need to be measuring more of in terms of some of the issues the communities are dealing with.