Public Safety Committee on March 10th, 2020

[Anne Kelly]

Obviously, yes, there was a significant amount cut during DRAP. We obviously looked at what we needed to do. The one thing at the time that the commissioner was clear that we shouldn't cut was front-line delivery services because those are of vital importance to keeping our community safe.

I understand that the CCLOs, the community corrections liaison officers, no longer exist, but by the same token, we've introduced security intelligence officers in the community, which we didn't have before.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

With respect, I went to the Winnipeg community corrections office, and a commissionaire was there providing security. He was just an old, retired.... I'm sure he's a lovely man, but I would much rather have seen a police officer in that facility than a commissionaire sitting there.

[Anne Kelly]

I don't believe with the CCLOs that a police officer would have been sitting there in lieu of a commissionaire.

It's clear that at CSC we have to manage within our budget. We have to prioritize. Some of our union members are here today. We have regular discussions with them.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I have a question for Ms. Oades as well.

This report said that in 2015 there were no indigenous Parole Board members. I know that the appointment process changed under our government. In Quebec, under the previous government, eight out of nine appointments were men, and six out of nine were Conservative Party members.

Can you speak to the diversity that's on the board and also to the merit-based appointment as opposed to the previous appointment process?

[Jennifer Oades]

I wasn't aware of how that previous process worked, but I can say that there has been a huge push, a huge emphasis on looking at ensuring that we reflect more of the Canadian population than we have in the past. As I said, 53% of our board members now are women; 7% are visible minorities and 12% are now indigenous people. There has been improvement over the years.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Are you confident that they are experienced and qualified and are making good decisions in these cases?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Jennifer Oades]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's the kind of brief answer we love.

Mr. Paul-Hus, I'm sure you will be equally brief. You have five minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Earlier, Mr. Lightbound talked about crass partisanship, and Ms. Damoff has just demonstrated that by talking about the budget cuts in 2008. The problems we are talking about here took place during the Liberals' mandate because of decisions made by the members that they appointed. Let me remind you that they have been in power for five years.

I want to go back to the appointment process, because it is a real problem. In 2017, there was a purge, but it all started in December 2015, when Minister LeBlanc sent a letter to 33 vice-chairs of various regions across Canada asking them to resign. Now the vice-chair of the Quebec region has received a letter asking him to leave. It is part of the undue pressure on independent officers. Independent they normally are, but political pressure is being put on them so that they resign.

The 2017 purge involved not renewing any of the mandates of the members who were in place, including Quebec, where the situation that concerns us at the moment occurred. It was all done because the Liberals wanted to make sure that no Conservatives remained in place. By the way, Dave Blackburn was a candidate after being a member. Before that, he had never been in politics with us.

We have to understand that the remarks that Ms. Damoff has just made are part of an ideology that wants to make changes in the name of diversity, by including indigenous women, for example. As a result of that ideology, the Liberals removed people with the experience and expertise necessary to make decisions on prisoners and murderers like Mr. Gallese.

So what is most important?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm sorry, point of order, Chair.

To say women are not qualified—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That is not what I said.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

—I take real offence to that.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I never said that women were not qualified. I said that a political decision had been made by the Liberal government not to renew the contracts of experienced people because people were associating them with the Conservatives. The members will be able to come and testify soon.

You have decided to impose diversity on the basis of ideology. I am not saying that having diversity is a bad thing, but the major problem is that the expertise of the members in place was lost. The two members who made this decision did not have the experience required to do a good job. If Ms. Fortin and Mr. Lainé had the necessary experience, they would have immediately sent Mr. Gallese back to prison.

Do you agree, Ms. Oades?

[Jennifer Oades]

No, I don't agree at all.

I want to say that we did a bit of a review of how board members have changed over the last 20 years. I'm going to say to this committee, to each of you, that whenever there is a change of government, you see a big change in the makeup of the Parole Board.

In terms of experience, there is a regular churn. Part of it's by law that there be three-year appointments. It takes close to six months to a year to get a board member completely ready to vote on all different types of votes. There are very many different types of votes.

In terms of experience, someone who has five to 10 years of experience as a board member is really quite remarkable. This isn't a career. These are appointments for three to five years, so there is a constant churn. I have 21 appointments that will term off this year. I'll be looking for either people who want to be renewed, and some don't, or I'll be bringing in new board members.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I understand, but the loss of the experience and the expertise in 2017 was catastrophic. That is why eight former members—Liberals too, not just Conservatives—wrote a letter to Justin Trudeau, stating specifically: “Our primary mandate is to protect the public, and we fear that this mandate is currently in jeopardy”. The Prime Minister never replied.

You mentioned that you were aware that the letter existed, but that you had not seen it. As chairperson of the Parole Board of Canada, do you consider that it is unacceptable to have lost that expertise, or is it of no importance?

[Jennifer Oades]

I don't believe there was a huge loss of expertise over the entire board.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

The Quebec region lost its expertise.

[Jennifer Oades]

They did not lose—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Actually, Vice-Chair Jacques Bouchard was kicked out. Mr. Bouchard did not go on leave of his own accord.

[Jennifer Oades]

There are still lots of members there who have been there, who have lots of expertise and have been reappointed by this government. I would also say, and I think my colleague here sort of suggested, that it's not the years of experience; it's how many votes you do. I'm going to tell you that one of the people who has been quite outspoken had fewer votes in three years than the two board members who made this decision. That's experience.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

They made a bad decision because they took no action.

[Jennifer Oades]

You were talking about experience. I'm sorry, we're talking about two different things here.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

Madam Khera, you have five minutes, please.