Public Safety Committee on June 23rd, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I now call this meeting to order. This is the seventh meeting of the public safety committee, an emergency meeting called at the request of four members. There was a motion passed earlier today to study policing and the issue of systemic racism.

We're fortunate enough today to have with us Minister Bill Blair, a person frequently before this committee, along with Commissioner Lucki.

I understand, Mr. Blair, you have a 10-minute opening statement.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

I do, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to thank you and the members of the committee for their kind invitation to speak before you. As we speak, we know that important discussions are taking place in communities and provinces right across Canada and around the world on the issue of systemic racism within the criminal justice system. This is a very important issue, and I am very grateful that SECU has decided to take on this particular issue at this most critical time. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to your discussion.

We have seen shocking video footage of George Floyd's death, and that footage has galvanized people to raise their voices in protests like never before. While the protest movement began south of the border, the demonstrations soon spread to Canada as well and have compelled us to take a deep and serious look at the issue of systemic racism and the impact it has on Canadians here at home.

As the Prime Minister has said, it is something that touches every corner and every person in our country. There's no doubt that indigenous people, black Canadians and other racialized people experience systemic racism and disparate outcomes within the criminal justice system. That system includes all of our police services, including the national police force, the RCMP, for which I am responsible in the government.

As you know, the RCMP commissioner, who I am very fortunate to have joining me here today, has acknowledged that systemic racism is part of every institution in Canada, the RCMP included. I commend her for that acknowledgement. I also support the important work she is doing to reform the RCMP, including her efforts to increase diversity and inclusion in decision-making, training and recruitment.

I also want to express my sincere and profound appreciation to the members of the RCMP, who serve Canadians with integrity, dedication and professionalism every day. The RCMP has a very strict and bias-free policing policy that guides the actions of its members in every interaction they have with the public. This policy is based on the principles of equality and non-discrimination, and therefore it is an important step forward. It's also important to acknowledge that when individuals do not live up to that bias-free policing policy there must be strict accountability.

I have, as many of you know, spent most of my life in public service. For almost four decades, I served my community as a police officer, including 10 years as the chief of police for Canada's most populous city. I can tell you from first-hand experience that the overwhelming majority of police officers in this country do conduct themselves in an exemplary manner and make every effort to minimize the use of force.

The goal of every police officer must always be to protect and maintain public safety and keep our citizens safe. The highest duty is the preservation of all life.

However, we would not be having this discussion today if everything were perfect, if this happened flawlessly on each and every occasion. Systemic racism is a reality in Canada, and when it occurs, I have no intention to and will not defend the indefensible. Let me be very clear: Discrimination on the basis of race or as a result of any other form of bias is unacceptable and abhorrent. It is not merely unacceptable and abhorrent; it is unlawful. It's contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and it's contrary to the Canadian Human Rights Act.

It cannot be tolerated within policing or in any other aspect of our justice system. We cannot shy away from uncomfortable truths. We must do more and we must do better. Our policing services must be committed to ensuring they are worthy of the trust all Canadians put in them to protect us. Maintaining that trust requires rigorous accountability when there appears to be suggestion of misconduct. For example, when an officer appears to have exceeded their authority, used excessive force or acted in a biased or discriminatory way, that must be quickly investigated. If an officer is found to have broken the law, they need to be held strictly to account.

There are processes and oversight mechanisms in place to ensure these things happen. These mechanisms are important, and I will continue to support and uphold their use. I will also continue to speak with racialized community members and indigenous leaders across the country about the concerning incidents that have taken place over the past several weeks, as well as about the newly released data on the RCMP's use of intervention options.

These discussions are critical to ensuring that our policing services serve everyone with the dignity and respect they deserve. It is more important than ever that we acknowledge the lived experience of those who have experienced racism or discrimination at the hands of the police, and work to put a stop to this injustice.

While we will continue to engage with individuals and groups, Canadians expect concrete action. That's why I will continue to pursue my mandate priorities in this area. One of those priorities is to ensure that all officials in Canada's law enforcement and security agencies have access to unconscious bias and cultural competency training. Another is to co-develop a legislative framework that recognizes first nations policing as an essential service and ensures that police services are culturally appropriate and reflect the communities they serve. I will have more to say about this, perhaps during the questions you may ask.

We have already committed to investing up to $291 million in the first nations policing program, which provides federal funding for professional, dedicated and culturally responsive policing services in hundreds of first nations and Inuit communities. That federal funding commitment is ongoing. It includes an annual increase to keep up with inflation, providing greater financial stability for communities. Of course, that's on top of recent funding to improve police facilities in first nations and Inuit communities, such as improving detachments and communication systems. That means funding for 185 police agreements under the first nations policing program, policing a first nations and Inuit population of roughly 432,000 people. This includes support for more than 1,300 police officer positions in over 450 first nations and Inuit communities.

I want to be clear that the first nations policing program has been a program for more than three decades in this country. It needs to become an essential service. It is our intent to co-develop, with indigenous communities and indigenous leadership across Canada, a new legislative framework for the delivery of culturally appropriate, professional and effective police services. We will work with and respect the jurisdiction and authority of first nations across this country to ensure that they have the policing services they need and deserve. I look forward to working with interested communities to expand the number that are currently served by first nations policing.

I'd also like to note that the government continues the important work to advance the calls for justice in the final report of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. This includes the calls for justice related very specifically to policing. Following the release of the inquiry's interim report, for example, the public safety department funded reviews of police policies and practices to identify gaps and challenges in the delivery of culturally competent policing services. The government has invested $1.25 million over two years for four external organizations with expertise in law enforcement and policing to lead these reviews. The reports have also made recommendations and identified tools, resources and promising practices that may be helpful in fostering a more trusting relationship and building confidence in police services. Their final reports will be made available on the public safety department website in the very near future. One of those reports is currently available on our website. The findings and recommendations from this review will also be an important source of information for such key law enforcement partners as the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.

We are also taking steps to increase transparency in police interactions through the adoption of body-worn cameras across the RCMP. Body-worn video creates greater accountability while also providing excellent evidence and a first-version view of what a police officer encounters, often in highly dynamic and potentially tense situations. The RCMP piloted body-worn cameras in a number of different environments. We will continue to build on this experience as well as examine the experience in other jurisdictions. We're currently working on the policy framework that will support their more widespread use, ensuring that this technology is also, and always remains, respectful of Canadians' privacy interests. We will move forward with implementing body-worn cameras as quickly as possible.

Mr. Chair, as I have made clear, there is no room for racism or discrimination of any kind in any of Canada's law enforcement agencies and institutions. We are working hard, and we will continue to work harder, to make our systems more just. We have taken some steps in the right direction, but let me acknowledge that there is much more work to do. That's why I will continue to work with Commissioner Lucki as she strives to make the RCMP a more just and accountable police service, where diverse voices and perspectives are valued and included, to create a better and safer environment in the communities they serve.

I thank you once again for your kind invitation.

I look forward to seeing the results of this committee's deliberations on this important topic, and I'd now be happy to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister Blair.

Minister Blair will be here with us for the balance of the hour, and Commissioner Lucki will be here for the entire two hours.

As I understand it, Commissioner Lucki will be making a statement at the beginning of the second hour.

With that, we will go to our first round of questions of six minutes each.

Mr. Uppal, Madam Damoff, Madam Michaud and Mr. Angus, you each have six minutes.

Excuse me, Mr. Paul-Hus. You have the first six minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before asking my questions, I would like to point out that the Conservative Party of Canada recognizes that systemic racism is a problem in a number of organizations in Canada.

Minister, your government has been in place for almost five years. Mr. Goodale was here before you, and you have been here since last year. Racism problems in Canada have continued.

I would like to know, with respect to the RCMP in particular, what steps you have taken in the past five years.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you. Frankly the commissioner is here and will perhaps be better able to articulate than I am the specific steps she's taken.

I'd point out that Commissioner Lucki was specifically appointed and given a mandate and a task to deal with discrimination and workplace harassment and a number of very significant issues that had previously been identified within the RCMP, and she's now completed two years of that task.

She recently shared with me a report on the work that has been undertaken. There have been a number of significant steps in the training of police officers serving in diverse and indigenous communities, and there has been, I think, a very sincere effort made by the RCMP to recruit people with more diverse backgrounds, and so a number of significant steps have been taken.

I would also point out that through the development of a number of important bodies, not the least of which was the building out of the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission and empowering it, has also been important.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Minister. You want to refer the matter to Ms. Lucki, however, who will be here for two years.

But I am trying to get an answer from you, from your government. Did you take action from the start? Have you looked into this problem?

You said that, in Ms. Lucki's mandate, there were certain provisions regarding discrimination, but two weeks ago you did not have the same version of the facts.

In your opinion, since the RCMP is part of your portfolio as Minister of Public Safety, has systemic racism always been an issue?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Let me explain it this way, Mr. Paul-Hus.

When we look at the criminal justice system, like many aspects of Canadian society, we see disparate outcomes. There are grossly disproportionate outcomes for indigenous communities, racialized communities and young black men in our society, who are, among all of those groups, disproportionately represented in police interactions, in our court system, and in our prisons.

We also see similar disparities manifesting themselves on issues of employment, in health outcomes, in education, and in access to mental health services and a wide variety of things. That highlights for us that there are significant issues of disparity that are systemic within a number of systems.

With respect to the criminal justice system, those disparities are obvious and we have been working on that fact. The justice minister has done a number of things, which we are bringing forward now to try to address some of those disparities in our prison system and our courts.

The Commissioner, through the RCMP, has also been undertaking to reduce those disparities and those disparate outcomes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

We are beginning a study on systemic racism today. I do not know if you are aware, but a 127-page report was tabled by your government in February 2018. It is called “Taking Action Against Systemic Racism and Religious Discrimination Including Islamophobia”.

Recommendation 28 deals specifically with the RCMP:

Recommends that the Government of Canada work with the Canadian Association of Police Chiefs to incorporate racial and cultural sensitivity training as well as specific training for the handling of hate crime cases for officers and other members of law enforcement.

It has been more than two years since this recommendation was made in a report from your government. The 127-page report was all about systemic racism.

Are you aware of it?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, we have funded through Public Safety Canada and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police four distinct studies looking at systemic racism and policing in indigenous communities. Those reports, as I indicated, have been completed and will be made public.

I might just turn quickly to the commissioner to talk about training with respect to anti-discrimination measures.

Commissioner.

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you.

Since I've been in the chair, we've actually introduced, first and foremost, the “blanket exercise” to cadets at Depot. It gives them the history of indigenous cultures and provides the impacts of their actions so that when they go out in the field, they can know what the impacts are of their actions. We have an online cultural awareness course. We have introduced a cultural awareness and humility course. We have brought in trauma-informed approaches to dealing with victims.

As well, in the cadet training program, we have specifically brought in a missing persons module. Under the advice of indigenous leaders, the victim in the module is indigenous, so that cadets would not only deal with an actual operational file but also know the culture associated with a missing indigenous woman.

That's some of the training we've introduced.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Paul-Hus, I think you want a point of clarification on the report.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

I would like to clarify that the report I referred to is the report of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, which was submitted to the government in February 2018.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. Thank you.

Madam Damoff, you have six minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you both for being here today.

I think we all need to recognize that while many of these events have come to light in the last few weeks, this issue has been ongoing certainly with indigenous people for hundreds of years, sadly. The systemic racism in policing against indigenous peoples and black Canadians and other racialized people in Canada is just unacceptable. I'm glad we're having these conversations right now.

To start, Minister, I have some questions around the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission. I'm going to give you a list of some things that I think could be looked at, and I'm wondering if you could maybe let me know if they're on your radar and would consider doing them. These things include bringing in legislation that would have timelines on the reports being released; an appeals process; the report going to an advisory committee or another body rather than the RCMP reporting to itself; meaningful engagement of indigenous and marginalized peoples in the review process; and simplifying the complaints process, because many people feel that they need to hire a lawyer in order to file a complaint, and a number of people do not have the socio-economic ability to hire a lawyer.

Minister, I'm wondering if you could let us know whether that would be on your radar right now.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Let me begin by saying that I think our complaints system has to be accessible to all Canadians. It needs to be transparent. It needs to be fair and objective. It also needs to be quick. What we have seen and what I've heard very clearly is that Canadians across the country have raised a number of concerns regarding the timeliness of those complaint reviews.

I've had a little bit of experience in my own jurisdiction, under a different legislative framework, with a complaints process. As a police chief, I can tell you that a well-functioning and accessible complaints review system that the public can trust with regard to its objectivity, its fairness, and its accessibility, and through which individuals who engage in misconduct will be held to account, is of tremendously important assistance to a police chief to maintain public trust in those complaints systems. I also recall that when they were first being introduced across the country, there was some resistance to them amongst police leaders. What we found very quickly was that when those investigations were being conducted independent of police leadership and the public trusted the outcome, they produced much better results.

I'll also tell you that in my experience the overwhelming majority of complaints can be resolved quite informally and quite quickly, but they need to be recorded to ensure the integrity of a complaints review system.

I am in complete agreement with the importance of published and enforceable timelines so that Canadians can have a reasonable expectation of when a matter will be resolved, and I think they should be as open and transparent as possible. The commissioner and I have had a number of conversations about how that can be achieved.

I would also point out that we introduced legislation in the last Parliament, which, unfortunately, passed in the House but didn't get through the Senate. We've reintroduced it in the form of Bill C-3. That's for a complaints review system that builds upon the existing CRCC body and includes the responsibility for providing a complaints mechanism for our border services officers. I'm looking very carefully at that legislation to ensure it does have those appropriate and defined timelines. I think there are a number of things this committee could do.

Let me assure you that I'm very open to your observations and recommendations coming forward from the work of this committee on how we can make the complaints review system work better, not just for all Canadians but for police officers who are the subject of these complaints. Timely resolutions of those complaints are actually in their interests as well so that they can get on with rebuilding their relationship with the people they're supposed to be serving.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Commissioner, I have a specific question for you. In February I held a screening of the movie We Will Stand Up, which was about what happened to Colten Boushie. His sister, his mom, and the director Tasha Hubbard were there. Obviously, there were a number of questions raised on racism in the legal system and within the RCMP.

There was a complaint filed. I know the review has been completed. You've had it since January 2020. On behalf of the family, I am just wondering when they can expect to see the results of that review.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I can't emphasize enough the importance of such a review. It's actually we who asked the CRCC to do the review, and not the reverse. It was only because we wanted to be as transparent as we could.

The CRCC has done extensive research and a great job on the review. We need to give the same consideration to the review. I'm planning to have that review done by the fall of this year.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay.

Just quickly, because I have only 30 seconds left, Minister, First Nations University is in Regina. I'm wondering if you would consider, rather than having just segments of training, having the cadets at Depot take an actual course in indigenous history at First Nations University.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I could probably speak to that because we've talked about having that partnership. Actually, I've created a lived indigenous advisory group with retired and current members of the RCMP. One of their suggestions was that maybe people could take the course before they come into the academy. That would be a great partnership. Your voice is well heard.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Damoff.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to begin by saying that I am pleased that the committee has been able to come together so quickly to consider this most important issue. The Bloc Québécois was among the first to support this request, at the initiative of the NDP, to convene this committee and study the issue.

The issue of systemic racism within the RCMP and police brutality must definitely be addressed. Of course, we need to meet with the RCMP Commissioner and the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and I thank them for being here today. Having said that, I think it is imperative that we hear from and listen to victims of police violence and discrimination from all walks of life. These are the men and women who have the most to teach us as parliamentarians so that we can come up with concrete, non-partisan solutions on this committee.

I am very much looking forward to this process, which begins today.

Minister, thank you again for being here. You talked about concrete solutions and a number of measures that have been put in place since the Liberals have been in power. You talked about the use of cameras when officers respond.

I would like to know, specifically, what measures have been put in place from the start.

I feel everyone here today agrees that systemic discrimination exists within the RCMP. The commissioner recognizes it, you recognize it, and so does the Prime Minister. Now is the time for specific solutions and actions.

What are they?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Let me speak to a couple of things that I think are very important.

One thing that was recognized prior to the recent incidents, and that was placed right in my mandate letter from the Prime Minister, was to co-produce with indigenous leadership in Canada a new legislative framework for indigenous policing. For 35 years indigenous policing, policing in indigenous communities and in the territories, has been done primarily as a program. That's the first nations policing program. It receives program funding every year, but it's never been acknowledged or recognized as an essential service. I think that's to its detriment.

It's also, I think, necessary and appropriate to work with indigenous leadership to acknowledge and recognize their jurisdiction in governance, in oversight and in accountability and for them to have the ability to define how they want their communities to be policed. There are a number of models with various levels of success across the country. I think we can learn and build upon that. We've been doing that work. I have reached out to regional chiefs of the AFN and to the national chief, but also grand chiefs from around the country. We're also looking at those communities that are currently being policed by their own first nations policing program to look at how we can improve, through a legislative framework, the delivery of those police services. It may include the RCMP. It may include other provincial police services, such as the Sûreté du Québec and the Ontario Provincial Police. Really, it's to acknowledge and recognize the indigenous leadership in their communities and how they want to be policed. We believe there's a need and an opportunity to move forward on that.

As well, we have been investing in creating a more diverse and inclusive RCMP. The commissioner can share with you as well the work that is being done. I will tell you from my own experience that having people in policing who have the lived experiences of the people they serve, who know what it's like to face discrimination and disparity, who know what it's like to be a new immigrant family, who have that lived experience and who bring it to the profession of policing makes policing more effective in those communities. As we work to create more diverse police services, I think that's an important step forward as well. So there is no one thing to do. There are very many things to do.

The last thing I will say in response to your inquiry is that it's not simply about the police; it's about the community in which the police work and the type of work we have them do. It's also necessary to invest in communities, in kids, and to support other aspects of those communities that reduce the need for police intervention. Perhaps no greater challenge exists for the police in this country than that of dealing with people in crisis. A great deal of work has been done and much more needs to be done in that regard.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

I understand that you feel that recognition of existing Indigenous police forces as essential services is on the drawing board. That's very good. Do you believe that funding them adequately and also funding Indigenous recruiting are viable solutions?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think funding is an important issue. I think there are a number of aspects. The most important thing is to put in an appropriate legislative framework that recognizes that an essential service creates a strong system of governance. In my experience, good policing requires good governance. We have to make sure that's in place. In addition to that, we have to make sure that the people who are hired and trained, overseen and held accountable for the delivery of those services, have to be adequately resourced to do so.

Getting that right means there must be important conversations. That work has begun, but there's a great deal more to do in working with indigenous leadership across the country and also provincial and territorial partners. All of us, all orders of government, have a responsibility here, but for the first time, and I think most importantly, we need to include indigenous leadership in that discussion.