Public Safety Committee on Dec. 7th, 2020

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I can accept that comparison between the RCMP and other police forces.

Is that a true statement based on your experience? Is there a toxic culture, or was there a toxic culture?

[Alain Babineau]

That's a fair statement.

The refusal to even recognize that it exists is...The same thing happened with those brave women who came forward, initially, to report sexual harassment in the RCMP. They were met with sarcasm and denial. They were even attacked.

Since I've come forward in sharing my experiences, I've been attacked and doubted. People don't believe me. They think I'm making this stuff up. That's the reality we live with in the RCMP.

I'm in contact with police officers right across Canada, from various police organizations, and it's the same in most of the large police organizations. There's this lack of belief that these things exist. Until we get a grip, and recognize there's a problem, we'll have to go through the same process that the female officers had to go through, and are still going through, quite frankly.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Could you reflect on whether that attitude or culture, if we use that word, carried through in terms of the actual carrying on of.... You mentioned at the beginning in passing that racism existed in terms of the service provided, as well.

Was that behaviour reflected in how others, who were interacting with the RCMP, were treated when you were there?

[Alain Babineau]

Do you mean in terms of service delivery?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

It was suggested, for example, by many of the women, who talked to Justice Bastarache as part of this lawsuit that the attitude toward women in the force itself was also reflected in how the members of the force treated women or indigenous people whom they were supposed to be interacting with or protecting?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave the question there, as Mr. Harris is way over his time. Maybe you could circle back to the answer at some point, because it is an important question.

Colleagues, we have 15 minutes, and we have 25 minutes of questions in the next round.

I'm going to arbitrarily drop a minute off everybody's questioning time. That way, we'll be somewhere close to the time that we've allocated.

Mr. Kurek, you now have four minutes.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you, and thanks to our witnesses for your service in our communities.

I understand that time is short, but this question is directed to the officers from the Sherbrooke police. You mentioned outcomes at the end of your opening remarks.

Would you briefly summarize the benefits and outcomes of the program you've described to us?

[Patrick Roy]

The benefit of our mobile psychosocial intervention team's programs is certainly to prevent the revolving door phenomenon, meaning people entering hospitals and leaving immediately. These programs also make it possible to develop police responses that better suit the situations and to increase our organization's expertise.

Here's a very worthwhile point for you. Our mobile team makes it possible to avoid prosecuting people on some occasions. It certainly makes it possible to avoid overprosecuting them. Our team provides an incredible added value.

Moreover, it maximizes the chances that a response will end peacefully. I don't have any figures about the use of force to provide today. However, I can tell you that our police officers in the mobile psychosocial intervention team have conducted about 300 follow-ups on recurring cases in the past year. These are certainly cases for which our organization would have received calls for our general patrol officers to handle. Confrontations could then have occurred.

Someone asked me earlier how to avoid this situation. In our organization, each time we proactively avoid the need for a response involving people with mental health issues, it's significant. By conducting about 300 follow-ups on recurring cases, we certainly have another chance to avoid the use of force. We're sure of this.

Mental health calls have doubled since 2015. However, we've seen a 30% decrease in ambulance transportation. We're avoiding unnecessary hospitalizations.

In short, we're seeing these direct benefits.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that and I wanted to give you a chance to follow up on those remarks.

I have—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a minute and a half.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

—about a minute and a half, so to our other witness, regarding mental health, while police have some training, mental health is not generally seen to be the expertise of a police officer.

In your experience, what response models have you seen to ensure that there are effective mental health responses by police officers responding to the wide variety of challenges they would face?

[Patrick Roy]

Our specialist police officers have taken extensive training. General police officers in Quebec are increasingly taking the training provided by the Quebec national police school and social services on how to respond to people with mental health issues. The school has even overhauled its courses on tactical communication and active listening to encourage de-escalation. Police officers in Quebec, and not only the officers in Sherbrooke, have more and more access to this type of training.

To better handle a person with a mental health issue, we must know what their illness is. We often lack this information when we respond on the ground, whereas the social services have this information. Depending on the illness, the de-escalation training gives our police officers ways to communicate and ensure optimal responses.

For example, we don't respond to a person with schizophrenia in the same way that we would respond to a person suffering from depression. We don't communicate in the same way with a person who has manic depression or with someone who poses a high risk of committing an act.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

[Patrick Roy]

That's what matters.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Inspector Roy.

Madam Damoff, you have four minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses.

I have a quick question for you, Monsieur Roy, from the Sherbrooke police. You mentioned that when you changed your mental health response, you went to five full-time police officers who specialized in mental health, and you still have the other ones who are partnered.

Can I ask why you didn't just go with five full-time mental health professionals?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Monsieur Roy.

[Patrick Roy]

We still have both. We have social workers four nights a week, but we want to be able to hire them. In a second or third phase, the partnership with the social workers should be improved.

The perfect model is a police officer accompanied by a social worker. I know that I'm repeating myself. The police officer manages the danger aspect, prevents possible assaults and protects the social worker. The social worker protects the police officer in terms of the legitimacy of the officer's response.

We have five full-time police officers who have developed expertise in mental health. It would be good to have a social worker and a police officer on a joint team at all times, seven days a week. We currently have social workers only four nights a week.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. All right.

Mr. Babineau, thank you for your testimony. As you've heard, we had Justice Bastarache here last week, and I want to quote from his report. He said that harassment and discrimination are perpetrated by what many women describe as the old boys' club, referring to a network they say exists between men, and now like-minded women, “that asserts control over the RCMP and how it approaches change, who it promotes and who it holds back”.

Does this old boys' club also prevent Black officers from advancing in their careers, and do you think that the changes Justice Bastarache included in his report would change that old boys' club that currently exists?

[Alain Babineau]

Some of the recommendations might assist in changing the old boys' club, but the old girls' club, well, it's not an old girls' club, but some of the old girls have been joining the club and that's problematic.

However, to be quite frank with you, the RCMP in 2011 put forth a gender respect plan. At the time, it was ordered by the federal government to put in place an affirmative action program, essentially, not only to recruit but also to push through and promote a significant number of females right through the ranks. Nine years later, what you have is the RCMP commissioner, who's female, and you have nearly 35% of all commissioned officers in the RCMP who are female, but largely, white female.

I'll give you an example—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Do you know what percentage of the RCMP are Black?

[Alain Babineau]

I think there are about 300 to 350 Blacks, roughly. Again, there are no disaggregated numbers in the RCMP that have been collected. That's just anecdotal.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I just was curious.

[Alain Babineau]

The plan, the gender and respect plan, actually worked in terms of promoting women, white women particularly, and hiring more white women, but the BIPOC females did not benefit from that program the same way that white females benefited.

I know I have 30 seconds left. I'll give you a quick example. The first Black—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we cannot take your quick example.