Evidence of meeting #11 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
4:20 p.m.
Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
Oh, we're out of time. I don't want to get you in trouble.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Yes. I'm already getting heat from the various whips' offices that we have two meetings stacked up behind us, and we have a very important second hour to talk, as well.
We'll to to Madame Michaud for one minute, and Mr. Harris for one minute.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
For this short minute, I'll turn to you, Mr. Roy. I find the program that you established at the Sherbrooke police department quite inspiring. We could certainly export your model and ensure that general police officers become specialist police officers by working with social workers.
You said that people should be seen as individuals rather than suspects, which I particularly appreciated. By using words like these, we can start changing the toxic culture in all police departments.
What positive results have you seen on the ground? Could this model be exported elsewhere?
4:20 p.m.
Inspector, Regional Surveillance Division, Service de police de la Ville de Sherbrooke
For the Sherbrooke police department, it's certainly the ideal model. The size of our police department makes it possible for us to have this team and these resources. My colleagues and I could no longer do without them. Given the COVID-19 pandemic, according to this morning's figures, we now spend 20.5 hours a day on mental health responses.
We've adjusted the work of all the teams during the COVID-19 crisis, including criminal investigations. Our mobile psychosocial intervention team is the only team that remains intact. The team is working tirelessly. It handles recurring cases and cases of psychological distress to ensure a peaceful outcome to calls.
We think that the model is fantastic. I think that other organizations could use it. However, I can't speak for them.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Again, I apologize for cutting people off, but it is what it is.
Mr. Harris, to keep this within a minute would be a miracle.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Chair. I'll give most of my minute to Mr. Babineau to finish the answer to my question about Justice Bastarache's view that there was a toxic culture, including misogyny, homophobia and racism, in the RCMP.
Is that reflected in how they treat members of the public?
4:25 p.m.
Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
It has to be. It has to be because you couldn't be displaying racist behaviour against your own colleague without having it reflected amongst the clients you serve. As I said, personally I have seen it in some of the attitudes and comments I've heard about members of the Black community, so the answer would be yes.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
That, of course, wouldn't be everybody, but that's part of the culture.
4:25 p.m.
Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
Again, systemic racism doesn't mean everybody is racist.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
December 7th, 2020 / 4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Good. Thank you very much.
Mr. Babineau, I'm just going to pick up right where you left off. Earlier in your testimony you gave what I thought was a very good working definition of what systemic racism is, and that, of course, is the central theme of this whole study.
Maybe you could repeat that. I think it would be advantageous for us to have that in testimony, as we're putting our report together, to have a good working definition of the term.
4:25 p.m.
Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
I can't take credit for that definition. I was quoting Senator Sinclair's definition of racism. Essentially he said that some people believe that systemic racism is when everybody in the system is a racist, and there is no system where everybody is a racist. Then he went on to clarify it this way:
Systemic racism is when the system itself is based upon and founded upon racist beliefs and philosophies and thinking and has put in place policies and practices that literally force even the non-racists to act in a racist way.
The biggest backlash we get to this idea of systemic racism—and we find that here in Quebec—is this automatic fear that we're accusing everybody of being a racist, but that is not the case. That is not the case at all.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Thank you for that.
In your many years of experience in working in the police services, have you seen improvement in systemic racism? Do we have less of it today than we did, let's say, 20 years ago?
4:25 p.m.
Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
No.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
I don't think so, definitely not in terms of systemic racism. It's more sophisticated. It's more insidious, but it's still pervasive. It's still very much present and the biggest challenge is the backlash that any attempt at changing the status quo creates among the majority of the membership, and you can use the Ottawa Police Service as an example. It has a Black chief who has tried to put in place some new practices and policies and diversity, and he's suffered a tremendous backlash from his membership.
We must take heed that this is not an easy battle. This is not an easy fix.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Mr. Justice Bastarache was in front of us last week and he's been quoted a couple of times at this meeting already as having stated that the culture in the RCMP is toxic. I asked him if it can even be fixed.
I'm going to put that question to you too. Can the RCMP even be fixed, or does it have to be dismantled? Do we have to have another model of policing altogether?
4:25 p.m.
Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
It has nothing to do with the model. The RCMP can be fixed. As I said, I'm going to go back to the gender and respect plan that was put in place in 2011 to address sexual harassment, and also diversity with respect to females, in the RCMP. I think it has done quite well, and although misogyny and harassment probably still exist, I dare you to find any organization, regardless of its being a police organization, where it doesn't exist at all.
I think it's done quite well.
I want to give an example of the first Black female in the RCMP at commission rank who was promoted 13 years ago. Typically within two and a half years, you get your next bump to officer rank. Well, 13 years later, she's still at the first rank of the officer level and the folks who were constables, which is the very bottom of the barrel of the RCMP, are now her bosses. So you have to ask yourself a question: Are we making this stuff up? I don't think so.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Van Popta.
For the final four minutes we have Mr. Lightbound.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all the witnesses for their presentations.
My first question is for Mr. Babineau.
Mr. Babineau, during this study, several people have told us about the cadets' experience at the RCMP Depot. The culture created at Depot is more military than police. As a result, the training doesn't properly address the systemic racism issues.
Can you briefly describe your experience? What are your thoughts on Depot?
4:30 p.m.
Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
I'll tell you about my experience at Depot. When I trained there, I was one of the only Black cadets in the RCMP. In my troop, during that time, I saw maybe five or six other Black cadets.
The worst example of systemic and explicit racism that I saw at Depot was the racism against indigenous people. We saw indigenous troops, special troops and indigenous special constables who came from all over the place, from various indigenous and even Inuit territories. The displays of racism that these individuals experienced, the absolutely unbelievable comments that these people heard—I can tell you that it was appalling. This was my first exposure to this type of racism against indigenous people.
I'll give you another example. I was recently contacted by a cadet who just completed his training at Depot, a Black cadet who is now working at his first job. He told me about some very difficult things that he experienced during his training. He heard many comments, especially about the Black Lives Matter movement. People were always trying to challenge him to see how he would react. This has continued at his first job. His peers are watching him all the time, because he's going through a probationary period. They want to see how he'll react to the Black Lives Matters movement, among other things. Mr. Lightbound, 30 years later, I can say that systemic racism still exists.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC
That answers my question to some extent. Since you served in the forces for 27 years, this goes back a bit. The sad fact is that things haven't necessarily changed or evolved as much as they should have.
Do you have any recommendations for the committee on how to attract more RCMP members from diverse backgrounds?
4:30 p.m.
Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
Again, it's a matter of marketing. First, there must be a concrete commitment to address complaints of racial harassment within the RCMP.
I will say that the RCMP recently put out an anti-racism plan. I have to tell you that it's a meaningless plan. It's full of pronouncements and huge principles, and unless they put forward something.... Again, I'm going back to the gender and respect plan from 2011 that addressed systemic harassment, sexual harassment, and discrimination against females. Unless they put something like that forward and it's being implemented and monitored by the government, and also with the help of the Black communities and folks from those Black communities, you won't see any changes. You can recruit people, but the question is how they are going to be treated once they get into the organization.
Quite frankly, it's a whole lot of work, and it cannot be done from the inside. The RCMP cannot do it on its own.
