Public Safety Committee on March 10th, 2021

[Brigitte Diogo]

Yes, we continue to assess as we are implementing the measures, and we make adjustments as necessary. The quarantine hotels are there to ensure that when people arrive, they do the tests on arrival. As you know, the international flights are to the four cities. Travellers do their tests, and they are required to wait for the results of their tests before they can continue on their journeys.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I understand that. Thank you.

I'm going to go over to Dr. Bogoch.

It's nice to have you here. It's nice to see you face to face—sort of. Thank you for your very clear testimony earlier on.

You said there are a number of ways that a country like Canada could implement safety rules. You suggested a travel ban, which, of course, is impractical. You also suggested testing, which we do, and we would all agree that that's one of the tools. At-home quarantining has been very successful, but now hotel quarantining has been brought into the loop.

In earlier testimony, it was unclear to me whether there is clear evidence and data available that says that hotel quarantining is better than at-home quarantining. I know that you talked about the precautionary principle, but am I right that there's no clear evidence available from anywhere in the world that says that hotel quarantining is that much better than at-home quarantining?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry, Dr. Bogoch. Unfortunately, Mr. Van Popta has run through his time, but this is a question that keeps coming up, so I'm going to exercise a little chair discretion here and ask you to answer, especially since you've been very patient for the last two rounds.

Please, answer the question.

[Dr. Isaac Bogoch]

I'll be brief. Thank you very much.

To my knowledge, there has not been a head-to-head comparison. Of course, we can talk about data, but we can also talk about public health practice in a time of great uncertainty with potentially dangerous variants of concern circulating and about precedents set by other countries. While I can't look you in the eye and tell you with a straight face the true incremental of added safety, I would say that it certainly adheres to fundamental public health principles to add additional layers of safety where you can to protect yourself from an unknown threat, and then rapidly pivot as you gain and gather that data that would really help inform your next best move.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Then, it's really an experiment that we're involved in.

[A voice]

No—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

We're going to have to come back on that answer.

Mr. Lightbound, you have five minutes please.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here tonight.

From the outset, it is clear that the incidents that have been reported in Montreal and Oakville are absolutely disturbing. It is imperative that we get to the bottom of them. I would like to come back later to the investigation conducted by the Public Health Agency of Canada, if time permits.

As for the very principle of mandatory quarantine in hotels, I am surprised to hear the Conservatives advocate less stringent measures at the border tonight and practically oppose mandatory quarantine in government-designated hotels, even though we are seeing the emergence of highly contagious variants throughout the world, for which we have little information, and elementary school children in Quebec have been required to wear masks since this week. I find it astounding to hear them suggest tonight that this policy was guided by obscure political motives. We see that countries like Australia, India, New Zealand, Israel, Qatar, South Korea, the Philippines and the United Kingdom have imposed, in one way or another, mandatory quarantine in government-designated hotels. I don't see this as a political move, either here or elsewhere, but rather as an application of the precautionary principle. In my opinion, you can't blame a fireman for putting out a fire with too much water.

Dr. Bogoch, I would like to hear your opinion on this. In your expertise, how does this kind of measure fit into the constellation of measures that need to be implemented to combat COVID-19, in an era when variants are appearing all over the planet?

[Dr. Isaac Bogoch]

I think it is a very reasonable policy to instill during a period of uncertainty. As you point out, we have to take a precautionary approach. I would say that the variants of concern—a few months ago and to a lesser extent now—pose a significant threat.

When I say “to a lesser extent”, I meant that because we have a greater understanding of what it is they do and the threat that they pose. I would not suggest that we have a full understanding of this, but I think we can use our understanding of this and certainly our understanding of how the vaccines protect us against the variants of concern and the role of variants of concern. We can use that information to help determine what the most appropriate policy is.

In the face of an unknown threat, I think it is very reasonable to take whatever measures you have to protect yourself. We've seen other countries do that rather successfully. We've seen, for example, Australia, New Zealand, many countries in Europe and Israel take the same approach. It's a very reasonable approach and it adheres to the fundamental public health principles.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

That is why I am surprised that the Conservatives are opposed to it in practice. It's certainly not a position they're pushing very hard in Quebec. They're pretty quiet about it.

One of the corollary effects of this measure is the deterrent effect it has on travellers. We know that for a year now, Canadians have been advised to avoid all travel for non-essential reasons.

Mr. Vinette or Ms. Diogo, could you come back to the decrease in the number of passengers since the implementation of this measure last February?

[Denis Vinette]

Thank you for your question.

Indeed, there has been a fairly significant drop in discretionary or non-essential travel, which we have seen at the border. Following the Prime Minister's announcement, among other things, we also noticed that people who were abroad returned to Canada before the new measures came into effect. If you look at the past week, there has been an 88% reduction in travellers crossing the land and air borders.

That said, we still have the same number of truckers crossing the border to maintain trade. So the drop is really in discretionary travel, both at the land border and the air border.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, do I still have some time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

This is maybe for the Public Health Agency and Mr. Kochhar. It was reported that there was an inquiry led by PHAC into the incidents that have been reported.

Where does it stand at this point?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, he's given you about 10 seconds to answer the question. Can that be answered very briefly, please?

Maybe the best thing to do here is to come back on the question in some manner or another because it is an inquiry into a police investigation.

With that, we've completed the second round. We're now into the third round.

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

My first question is to Dr. Bogoch.

Quite honestly, I'm quite confused to see your name on this witness list. The motion was very clear. It was for ministers and for officials who were involved in the hotel quarantine debacle.

Were you involved in developing this mandatory quarantine document?

[Dr. Isaac Bogoch]

I was not.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

Chair, I'm actually quite surprised that the Liberal members of this committee are avoiding the issue of why we're here, which is the incidents that occurred, how they occurred and how we can prevent them from happening again.

This is for Dr. Kochhar. In the first hour, we all heard the Minister of Public Safety basically acquiesce his responsibility on the issues. Public Safety placed all of the blame for public safety and security at the feet of PHAC. They basically threw PHAC under the bus.

PHAC then, when questioned, said that when it comes to security, the hotel association is responsible for security.

The Minister of Public Safety says it's all PHAC's responsibility. Then PHAC says it's not theirs really; it actually belongs to the hotel association. Then in questioning from Mr. Harris, ADM Kochhar acknowledged that they actually have government-contracted security people at hotels. This means that the government is, in essence, responsible for the safety and security of people in the required quarantine.

Is that your assessment? Can you confirm that, Dr. Kochhar?

[Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar]

I will confirm that what we have are Government of Canada employees who are the screening officers and quarantine officers, and security personnel who are contracted and stationed in there.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

That confirms, then, that at the end of the day, it's the Government of Canada that provides the security at these government-required quarantine facilities. It is responsible for the safety and security of Canadians.

Dr. Kochhar, did you or your department receive any direction from the ministers to change the quarantine policy, conditions and rules after the news of the assaults came out on February 24?

[Brigitte Diogo]

Mr. Chair, maybe I can take that question, given that it falls under me.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Go ahead.

[Brigitte Diogo]

I would like to reiterate that the event we are talking about occurred at a designated quarantine facility that is managed by the Public Health Agency of Canada. It was a very unfortunate incident and we are fully co-operating with the police.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

My question directly was, has PHAC been given direction by the ministers to change the rules and conditions? Has there been any direction given since this incident occurred, after the 24th?

[Brigitte Diogo]

Absolutely. The minister has been very clear that we need to follow up, do our own internal review and take any corrective measures as necessary.