Evidence of meeting #28 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Chair, I think it's important, given the testimony we've heard, that we deal with the 106(4) motion you have today, so I would say no to a third round.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
I was going to speak in the other direction and suggest that we do have a third round. I don't think we're going to need all the rest of the time to deal with either the 106(4) motion or the motion from the subcommittee.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
I agree with Mr. Harris. I support the idea of a third round.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Based on that, I think we will have a third round.
In light of Madam Damoff's comments, we will just chop it in half. It will be two and a half minutes, two and a half minutes, a minute, a minute, and two and a half minutes, and two and a half minutes.
I'm assuming that's all right with you, Mr. McGuinty.
Chair, National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians
That's fine, Mr. Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Therefore, I'm looking for a representative of the Conservative Party for two and a half minutes, and then the Liberal Party.
I didn't know that anybody was that shy.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Mr. Chair, we're just trying to figure out a little bit of a surprise, which is never a bad thing. Thank you very much for this and the committee's willingness.
Specifically, Mr. McGuinty, my question is regarding organized crime and the fact that it seems, both from this report and other other things I've read, that Canada has become a haven for money laundering. International crime groups are using Canada to launder up to $100 billion a year, and this seems to be a fraction of the massive amounts laundered per year globally, but still a significant issue.
Is money laundering a symptom of a growing number of criminal organizations, the product of the lack of concentration on this issue or a combination of both?
Chair, National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians
Mr. Kurek, I think it's a combination of both. The report from paragraph 87 forward lays out the nature of what is happening—some of the changes, what's happening in the drug trade, what's happening with money laundering, the extent of that money laundering, the example of what took place in British Columbia in terms of the casinos and the B.C. real estate. We highlight what's been happening in the greater Toronto area in terms of real estate and its connection to money laundering.
We tried to put this out as well as this question of trade-based laundering to explain what the magnitude of this challenge is and whether or not FINTRAC, the organization that is seized with this ostensibly, does not necessarily have the legislative authority to collect a certain amount of the information it would need. We laid this out in pretty clear paragraphs to point out exactly what you raised, which is another growing area. It's something I believe we may end up addressing. I can't prejudge, but as I said earlier, the committee is going to be pursuing a review of the federal policing mandate of the RCMP.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Thank you very much for that.
I would follow up. You half-answered this question, but certainly there are some complications between the investigative authority of the RCMP, FINTRAC and then our intelligence agencies. I'm hearing you say that a coordinated approach is something that hasn't been looked at but is something that may need to be looked at going forward.
Chair, National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians
I think that's a fair statement. Absolutely.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Okay.
We now have two and a half minutes for the Liberals.
Madam Lambropoulos.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much, Mr. McGuinty and team, for being here with us today to answer our questions, and thanks for the work that you do on this committee to protect Canadians.
My question is about the spike in online hate and online hate groups. I can't help but notice the concern that people have with Bill C-10 and people's belief that it would infringe on their basic rights to express themselves and freedom of expression, which obviously our government has said it wouldn't do. Because this is the current fear, I'm wondering how our government could go forward. What would you recommend or what ways that could you see our government going forward with legislation to stop people who organize hatred online and push that kind of an agenda on social media and online?
In what ways can we limit the ability of these groups to have a negative influence on Canadians?
Chair, National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians
Ms. Lambropoulos, I think you're raising the $64,000 question: What is the appropriate balance between free speech and when that free speech crosses a line and becomes something else? It's not something the committee examined in terms of what's the remedy or what's the recommendation. In fact, this report was agnostic this year on recommendations. It wanted to present the magnitude of the risks, but we really hope that a committee like public safety, for example, might apply its collective mind to figure out what the best way forward is.
We haven't examined Bill C-10. It's being debated. We haven't applied it to this particular set of challenges, but we may have more to say about this when we release our report on cyber-activities, which we hope will be by the summer. We may also have more to say about this when we are finished the review of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police's federal policing mandate, given their role as the national organization with the primary responsibility for national security investigations and organized crime, for example.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Ms. Lambropoulos.
Madam Michaud, you have one minute, please.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The report discusses organized crime and how its activities have become increasingly complex. However, the report states that the nature of the threat hasn't really changed since 2018.
It's still a scourge in Canada's largest cities, including Montreal, where a 15-year-old girl was shot and killed, probably by a street gang member who possessed an illegal weapon. In addition, a young man was arrested with nearly 250 illegally imported weapons at the United States border.
Aside from the fact that we already have all this information on organized crime, do you think that Canada is doing enough to address the illicit trafficking of firearms?
Chair, National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians
This issue wasn't reviewed by NSICOP and wasn't addressed in this report. However, it will likely be considered when NSICOP continues its review of the situation regarding the RCMP's national security mandate.
Liberal
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
In paragraphs 71 and 72 of your report, you talk about Russia, China and Iran having demonstrated an intention to develop cyber-attack capabilities. At the end of it, however, after suggesting that the Russians are already there, it says that CSE notes that “in the absence of a major crisis or armed conflict with Canada or the United States, the intentional disruption of Canadian critical infrastructure remains unlikely.”
I don't know what that's supposed to mean or whether you agree with that. Surely it's only in a crisis that these types of things would happen. Are we up to the defence of that, or do you evaluate that kind of a statement, which was just repeated here?
Chair, National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians
Mr. Harris, could I ask Mr. Jorgensen to respond to you directly on that?
Director of Operations, Secretariat of the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians
It was, in fact, a CSE, Communications Security Establishment, assessment that this type of activity goes on all the time. In fact, we see that some of our allies in the Middle East do the same thing, and not necessarily in a crisis. That similar thing could happen in Canada; however, the assessment of CSE is that the intention of a major state actor would only be displayed in the circumstance of a war.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you.
The next questioner will be a Conservative—I don't know who the Conservative is—for two and a half minutes.
