Public Safety Committee on June 2nd, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Sometimes people need support to come forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Damoff.

Before I turn it over to Mrs. Stubbs for her motion, the chair has a reflective concern based on Justice Bastarache's report.

We've paid out $125 million. I don't know whether that's out of the RCMP's budget or whether it's out of Public Safety's budget, but one way or another, it's the taxpayers of Canada who paid out $125 million on 3,000-plus claims. The commissioner of the RCMP has no idea to whom the money was paid and has no idea whether the perpetrators, at a level of criminality or less than criminality, are still in the midst of the force. All documents have been destroyed, and there's no real possibility of any clinical justice, in the Criminal Code sense of the word, coming out of this situation, absent the initiative of those who are the victims.

Do you see that as a very poor state of affairs?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I see that as the cards dealt when we deal with civil litigation, which isn't remedial or isn't forward-leaning that way. It is simply a reimbursement for harm that has been caused.

For me, the silver lining to this is the report, getting at least some of the ideas. The recommendations weren't surprising, but they reinforced what we needed to do. There were some things that came forward that we weren't specifically focused on but that we are now focused on.

It really gave the survivors a voice, and that was why it was so confidential. It was interesting. I gave Justice Bastarache the opportunity. I asked him, through the lawyers, of course, if he was going to do a draft report that we could respond to, so that we could give him some context on some of the issues, and he absolutely forbade that.

I couldn't understand why, because all the different kinds of reviews that we get through audit committees always do that. I understand now. If he had refuted some of the voices because of some of the information I gave him, that wouldn't have given them their voice. That was what this activity or this lawsuit was about, giving those members a voice.

It came out loud and clear again when I talked to Linda Davidson about how she finally had a voice. She was finally able to tell her story in hope that it would result in changes in the organization, and that's where I come in.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I don't take issue with the process for giving these claimants a voice. What I take issue with is that there seems to be little or no consequences, except for the taxpayers of Canada, who have to put up $125 million. All we have at this point are initiatives to go forward, which everyone on this committee would applaud, but the consequences for the perpetrators seem to be exceedingly modest.

I'll leave it there. Having listened to an hour and a half worth of testimony, I had to express myself.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Chair, if I may, I want to thank you for expressing that. I think that's the frustration of many Canadians who have read this report and understand where we're at.

Yes, the victims need a voice and I agree with that, but we still have the potential and the possibility that there are continued victims currently in the RCMP, because those perpetrators remain in the RCMP, and in some cases, as the report has indicated, their actions are serial in nature. As Mr. Harris and others have mentioned, and you as well, Commissioner, there has to be a way—there has to be a way—besides your internal memos to your members, that we can get rid of this scar and that those who are responsible can be held responsible in some way.

We won't get all of them, and I appreciate that the evidence threshold is totally different in this context as opposed to the report that he put together, but I would encourage you to do everything moving forward, as the chair has indicated, so that those responsible for these actions are held accountable and that any further ones who come under the new process face the full extent of the law and face those measures.

Thank you for your time, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

With that, I'm assuming, Madam Stubbs, that we can release the commissioner in order for you to move your motion.

Thank you for coming before the committee. I can only imagine that this has been difficult for you, but it's been exceedingly difficult for many others as well.

Thank you for coming.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Thank you for the opportunity to show that we are committed to making that change. We're not going let you down.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

With that, we'll release the commissioner and her colleagues and move to Madam Stubbs, taking into account that we also have set aside 15 minutes in camera for some conversation.

Shannon, go ahead.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I'll speak at my usual rapid-fire pace that causes such grief for the poor interpreters.

To end on that note, thanks, Chair, Pam and Glen for the questions and the summary that you made there at the end. That's exactly what I was trying to get at. I'm totally mind-boggled by this. I have no doubt that each and every one of us, regardless of our party affiliation, wants to see actual action on this and actual consequences. I think all of us are still deeply concerned about what will happen in terms of justice for the victims and consequences for the perpetrators.

Anyway, I'll get—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Shannon, I know you're speaking very rapidly and you can probably cover in two minutes what the rest of the us would cover in 20, but we do have a hard stop at 6:30 p.m. That's entirely my fault.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Okay, I'll move this motion.

Here's my motion, which I'm thinking and hoping we'll all support and get done so that we can get some action and a report back to Parliament and to Canadians on these issues.

I move:

That the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, in response to Merlo-Davidson settlement report (the Bastarache Report) titled “Broken Dreams Broken Lives” by retired Justice Michel Bastarache, considers the response of the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) to be insufficient given the seriousness of criminal activities and sexual misconduct in the RCMP, and since this inaction is detrimental to the integrity of our national law enforcement service, the communities they serve and the integrity of our criminal justice system, the committee:

1. adopt and submit the Bastarache Report and its recommendations as a report to the House;

2. report to the House its recommendation that the Government withhold all performance pay and bonuses for executives and managers at both the RCMP and Public Safety Canada until the executives and managers implement the Bastarache report recommendations that fall within their authority;

3. calls upon the Commissioner of the RCMP to provide a detailed report to the committee before June 23, 2021, on all ongoing actions and planning to implement the recommendations of the Bastarache Report, including timelines for implementation and ongoing work to meet the recommendations, and further calls for this report be updated and provided to the committee by the last Friday of each month until the committee is satisfied that the RCMP has met its obligations;

4. encourages the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness not to interfere or tamper with the reports referred to in subsection 3, but be provided a copy at the appropriate time by the Commissioner; and,

5. direct the Chair to call a meeting of the committee on the Bastarache Report if any updates requested in subsection 3 are not provided on time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

The motion is in order, even though there's no 48 hours' notice, because it arises out of the business of the committee.

We are down to three minutes. That hardly gives any opportunity to discuss the report, but first of all, I'm not quite sure if I saw Pam's hand up first and then Andréanne's—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I was second.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You were second, so Andréanne is first.

Madam Larouche, go ahead.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Would it be possible to have that motion in writing so that we can take it all in?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Pardon?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm assuming that is possible. It was moved verbally, so I'm assuming you do have a French copy, Shannon.

The answer is yes.

Pam, go ahead.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

We were all deeply upset by the Bastarache report, but also, the end of the meeting saw co-operation in the ways that all parties want to move forward on this.

Having Shannon read it and not having had a chance to digest it, I would move, given it's 6:29, Chair, that we adjourn and then the motion can be distributed to all of us.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's probably a motion that is in order and non-debatable, and I think we don't have that much choice, since our resources end at 6:30.

Is there any wish to vote on this or will we just accept it as is?

Okay, I think we put this off to a further debate.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I don't think we can do much more if we have a hard stop. I believe that Shannon, in her exuberance, used up whatever time there was and has taken us a little bit by surprise with the detail, so I guess we'll have to think about it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay, we have a meeting on Monday. I'll try to figure out where to put it on the agenda, because it does affect other things that we have in play.

With that, unfortunately, we have to adjourn, unless my clerk says something to the contrary.

Seeing nothing, the meeting is adjourned.