Public Safety Committee on Sept. 19th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have 25 seconds.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'm okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We'll start our second round of questions at this point with Ms. Lantsman, please.

You have five minutes.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you for being here, Minister.

Since our last meeting, another ISIS terrorist was arrested, and a plot was foiled. You alluded to that in your opening commentary about Mr. Khan.

You previously told Canadians that there were criminal background checks for temporary residents. There's actually no requirement for a police certificate. I'm going to go back to that, because you were very unclear.

In 2018, the government removed.... That means it doesn't require the police background checks; those are police clearance certificates from some countries of origin. In the case we're talking about, Pakistan is included in that, and it turns out that the student to whom your incompetent predecessor gave a visa is part of that. You removed the security checks. Your government removed the security checks.

You know that this guy was arrested. You know that a terrorist plot was foiled, with the help of U.S. intelligence. You know that he was off to Brooklyn to kill Jews. Have you reinstated that requirement for security checks that you previously told Canadians was in place?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Mr. Chair, I don't want to, in answer, give the impression that I'm validating a number of the alleged facts that I cannot speak about publicly.

I think my question to you, MP Lantsman, is this: Should we assume that, were police certificates to have been attained, we would have apprehended this individual? We are confident in the way our biometric system works and the progressive screening that operates in our country, and I think we should disabuse ourselves of the notion that Canada is hermetically sealed and that but for one procedure we would have stopped something. It's highly theoretical. It's quite speculative.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

It's actually not, Minister.

I'm going to jump in, because you require those police certificates for permanent residents. No, whether you know that or not, that's a fact and it's the case. Therefore, why wouldn't you require them for student visas? This is how this guy got in. You can ask your predecessor, Sean Fraser. He let him in.

I know you're cleaning up a mess whereby I think this government has ruined a generational consensus on immigration. However, why do you take them for permanent residents and not student visas? Why is there a different security check, if this is the terrorist plot that was foiled under this guy?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Not everyone who comes to this country is entitled to become a permanent resident of Canada or, indeed, a citizen. We take a progressive risk assessment approach. The approach works. I'm not saying it's perfect. Again, you're assuming a lot of facts that are not in evidence to draw a conclusion that may not have been what you assumed in the first—

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

What are you talking about? There was an arrest made for an ISIS plot by a terrorist who was about to kill people. The Minister of Public Safety.... The last time that happened, which was just weeks before that arrest, another two people were arrested. A guy was in an ISIS snuff video. He went through six different channels of immigration with four flags. He was checked six times by this country, and he was given citizenship.

What on earth are you talking about? These are two terrorists. How can you assure Canadians that there are no more if you don't understand your own department?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Again, let me repeat, and I cannot deviate, because, as you'll well appreciate, there is a criminal case going on—

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

You talked about it in your opening statement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Ms. Lantsman—

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I'm asking you a question.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

You've introduced to this committee a number of alleged facts that I cannot speak to, and I don't want to—

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

It's a fact. You lied about it on TV.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Ms. Lantsman—

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Again, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Ms. Lantsman, this language is unparliamentary. I would ask you to apologize.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I will retract that.

You misled Canadians about it on TV.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Again, Mr. Chair, through you, as indicated in the chronologies, I do want to speak to the decision-making of the officers in question. It was determined there was no evidence presented to the decision-makers themselves at the time that would have rendered these individuals inadmissible.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

You're missing evidence. You don't require that evidence. The least you can do is require that evidence, given that a terrorist plot was foiled. There have been two in the last month and a half. There has been one since Minister LeBlanc sat there and said the system is working as it should. Clearly there's something wrong, and we have to make sure that you can assure Canadians that this won't happen again, and you've remedied nothing.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I'm failing to understand the argument. If the argument is that requiring police certificates would have dispensed of all the investigative work and the work done by our officers to foil this plot, I would submit, respectfully, no.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Lantsman.

We'll go now to Mr. Gaheer for five minutes, please.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, thank you for appearing before the committee.

Immigration has certainly been in the news a lot for the past year. I think generally we do have a great immigration system, and tweaks are needed from time to time. You're certainly making those tweaks now, and they're very welcome.

I want to ask about this particular case. I want to make the point that, as an office that deals with a very high level of immigration work, for every one individual who gains temporary access to Canada to visit, there are multiple more who are denied on the merits of the file itself.

However, for cases when there is limited or unreliable data from the country of origin, how does your department handle that?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

That's an excellent question. I'm going to ask Aiesha to tackle that.

[Aiesha Zafar]

You're right that there are certain places where the information that may be available is less reliable, but our officers need to be satisfied that an individual is not inadmissible to Canada so that they don't pose any threat and they don't have any inadmissibilities.

Working closely with our security partners, such as CBSA and CSIS, as well as through our partnerships with our Five Eyes and other international partners, we're able to collect information that can help strengthen the inadmissibility assessment of any applicant.

If the officer is not satisfied, they can continue to ask for more information. For instance, they may require things such as police certificates, employment history or documents that will allow the officer to be satisfied that the individual does not pose a risk to Canada.

In addition to that, we collect biometrics. Biometrics are an important part of the immigration system, because they're not just for a security screening purpose where we're identifying if there's criminality; they're also to anchor identity. It's the first time we might see an individual, and using those biometrics and sharing those with our partners also helps us understand identity and determine if there's any derogatory information that exists on that individual.