Evidence of meeting #118 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was immigration.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Simon Larouche
Aiesha Zafar  Assistant Deputy Minister, Migration Integrity, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Harpreet S. Kochhar  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Michael Duheme  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Ted Gallivan  Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
Vanessa Lloyd  Interim Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 118 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Before we begin, I would ask all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. You will also notice a QR code on the card that links to a short awareness video.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I would like to remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or by Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

I inform you that the position of first vice-chair is vacant. MP Doug Shipley announced his resignation to me on Monday, September 16.

Thank you, Doug, for your service.

I now give the floor to the clerk so he can proceed with the election. Go ahead, Mr. Clerk.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Simon Larouche

Good afternoon.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the first vice-chair must be a member of the official opposition.

I'm now prepared to receive motions for the first vice-chair.

Please go ahead, Mr. Shipley.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

First of all, I'd like to say thank you for the past year of my being vice-chair. I enjoyed it very much.

I would like to nominate and welcome back my colleague MP Dancho to the position.

The Clerk

There is a motion on the floor that Raquel Dancho be elected first vice-chair of the committee.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

All in favour? All opposed?

(Motion agreed to)

It seems to be unanimous.

Welcome back. It's good to have you back.

We shall resume here the business of today. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on August 13, the committee is meeting to study the review of the foiled terrorist plot in Toronto and of the security screening process for permanent residence and citizenship applications.

I want to remind members that there is currently a section 517 publication ban in place. A section 517 publication ban prohibits the publication of any information, evidence or representations made at or in anticipation of a bail hearing. Any bail conditions, the reasoning of the bail court and any evidence or materials relied upon at the bail hearing are prohibited from disclosure.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses for the first hour. We have the Honourable Marc Miller, PC, MP, Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship.

Welcome.

From the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, we have with us Harpreet S. Kochhar, deputy minister; Pemi Gill, assistant deputy minister; Soyoung Park, assistant deputy minister, asylum and refugee resettlement; and Aiesha Zafar, assistant deputy minister, migration integrity.

I now invite Minister Miller to make an opening statement.

Please go ahead, sir.

3:50 p.m.

Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs Québec

Liberal

Marc Miller LiberalMinister of Immigration

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hello, members and everyone.

I want to first congratulate MP Dancho on becoming first vice-chair and the unanimous nomination by this committee. It's probably one of the few times the committee has voted unanimously on something.

Welcome back to the House of Commons. It's nice to see you.

It's nice to see all of you, for that matter.

I in turn want to echo the words of the Public Safety minister in commending the work of our security and law enforcement partners in apprehending the individuals in question. They've proven yet again that continued collaboration across law enforcement, security and border agencies is essential to keep people safe.

At the same time, I intimately share your serious concerns about the arrest of the two individuals charged in the terrorism attempt in Toronto, Ahmed Eldidi and Mostafa Eldidi. I'm also concerned about the arrest a few weeks ago of Muhammad Khan, a Pakistani national suspected of plotting an attack in New York.

I will provide as much information as possible, and, echoing the instructions of the chair in the ongoing court case, we must remember not to impair the Crown's ability to prosecute the individuals, the accused, and the right of the accused to a fair trial.

On August 28, we provided this committee with a chronology of events. I have also asked my deputy minister to conduct a thorough review of how these two individuals entered Canada, and we are conducting a review of our internal security screening procedures.

The first step is to gather all the facts. Once these elements are in place, Minister LeBlanc and I will move quickly to make the necessary changes to strengthen the system, if necessary. The internal review will be completed in the coming weeks, and the findings and recommendations will be made public.

Before highlighting my department's role in strengthening security screening procedures in Canada, I would like to give you an overview of how my department works with other agencies to protect the country.

Canadians deserve answers and transparency. It's precisely what all of us aim to provide today. It's why my department provided a chronology of events to this committee regarding Muhammad Khan, in addition to the chronology of events provided in August.

I do want to be clear. Everyone who wants to come to Canada is screened. IRCC works closely with CBSA, with CSIS and with the RCMP to share information and to identify people who may pose a national security risk.

This monitoring occurs in three stages: before the person arrives to Canada, at the port of entry and once in Canada. You heard that from my colleague a few weeks ago.

My department leads on the first stage in collaboration with CBSA and with CSIS. Every applicant for a temporary or a permanent residency is subject to an initial security assessment. We assess their personal information and their history against a set of risk indicators to determine if they could pose a potential threat.

Based on those risk indicators, we identify applicants who warrant further security screening by CBSA or by CSIS. We also confirm their identity and assess admissibility, verifying biometric data such as fingerprints and biographic information against RCMP databases, as well as immigration data held by international partners. That includes our most important partner, the United States.

Immigration officers systematically assess applications based on the criteria set out in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. They may deem someone inadmissible on the basis of criminal activity, human rights violations, national security concerns or misrepresentation. Members of a terrorist organization are inadmissible.

Officers with CBSA, the Canada Border Services Agency, conduct another level of screening at entry into Canada. People who misrepresent themselves, use fraudulent documents or are flagged in our system can be refused entry. All adults who claim asylum in Canada undergo extensive security screening by the CBSA and CSIS, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

Once individuals are admitted to Canada, security and law enforcement partners work together to manage threats within our borders.

If applicants violate the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, they risk losing their status and facing removal and criminal charges. As minister, I have the authority to revoke someone's Canadian citizenship if they've obtained it by being dishonest, committing fraud or hiding important information.

With regard to Ahmed Eldidi, his initial temporary resident visa application was refused. This was not for security reasons, as no risk indicators were identified during the initial assessment. Rather, he was deemed a potential non-genuine visitor over concerns that he wouldn't leave Canada at the end of his authorized stay. When he applied again, his application was approved after the officer was satisfied that he intended to visit Canada.

Risk indicators that were flagged along his immigration journey, from his asylum claim to his applications for permanent residency and citizenship, were referred to security partners. A favourable recommendation, as you heard a few weeks ago, was returned each time. No issues were found by the officers that made him inadmissible.

I'm taking this situation very seriously. I fully support my department's review and the discussion today. We are committed to taking all necessary steps to keep everyone safe.

The safety of Canadians is the top priority of this government and of all members of cabinet. Together, we will continue to prevent, detect, and disrupt any suspected terrorist threat or activity. We are also committed to continually reviewing and improving our security apparatus.

Thank you, Chair.

I'm happy to take your questions.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

We'll start our questions with Ms. Dancho.

Ms. Dancho, please go ahead for six minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here, and thank you for your kind opening words. I appreciate that.

As we know, we have a very serious situation on our hands, Minister. It's the reason you're here. Your government has allowed three alleged terrorists into our country through the immigration streams.

That came ultimately from what we've learned from the RCMP through Globe and Mail reporting. It came within hours of the murdering of an untold number of innocent people—Canadians and Americans—and learning of the latest alleged terrorists who have gained entry into Canada under immigration streams under your watch, sir.

Unfortunately, although it's been several weeks since the first two and a few weeks since the second iteration, we've yet to find out how this happened, and, to my knowledge, you've made no commitments on how you're going to fix it and prevent it from happening again.

What we do know and understand is that your government in the past has directed public servants to fast-track immigration procedures: to cut some corners to bring people in as quickly as possible. Now we have a situation in which we have three alleged terrorists on our hands. It is reasonable to believe that there could be more.

What specific steps have you taken in the past few weeks to ensure no more alleged terrorists can gain entry to Canada through our immigration streams?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Miller Liberal Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC

Thank you for the question, MP Dancho.

As you know, there are a number of elements about this case that I cannot discuss publicly. I would also not assume a number of facts that are not in evidence currently, but again, we take these incidents extremely seriously. I announced in the French portion of my speech that we should come up with a result of our internal investigation within the next two weeks.

Again, that will be made public. I think the discussion here is to see if and when there was any deficiency and, if there was one, whether it is one that is systematic, and then how we remedy that.

What we will disclose to you in the next two weeks, obviously, we can't disclose today. The investigation is not complete, but we've prepared to disclose it in the next two weeks.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Just to confirm, though, you haven't taken any measures to change any procedures whatsoever. Nothing has changed.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Miller Liberal Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC

As I've said to you, we are currently investigating if and when there were any deficiencies, and what measures need to be taken.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you. I appreciate that.

With my knowledge of immigration, the procedures are already known. In fact, your department has provided a list of how the procedures are undertaken.

To me, it's very clear that if you can follow the trail over the last number of years, you should be able to determine how it is, for example, that we weren't able to determine that there was a 2015 ISIS video in which one of the alleged terrorists was dismembering a prisoner. Back in 2015, that was circulating on the Internet, yet, three years later, he gained entry to Canada and, in fact, went through six different immigration streams since that time and ultimately gained Canadian citizenship. In that time, there were four red flags flagged for that individual. Three of them were risk indicators. Obviously, none of them were taken seriously, or not to the extent that he was not allowed to continue down the immigration stream.

What I did find interesting, though, Minister, is that in 2018 your government removed the requirement for police background checks—officially called “police clearance certificates”—from the country of origin, from countries like Pakistan. Pakistan ultimately is a bit of a high-risk country, to say the least, and it's puzzling that this was done in 2018. This security check was removed, and now we know that a student visa holder from Pakistan gained entry into Canada.

Have you reinstated this security requirement, for example? That is an easy step that you could have taken by now.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Miller Liberal Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC

Again, currently, you know that this individual was an asylum seeker. You know, again, that there are differences with respect to different requirements and the reliability of police certificates at different stages. They vary in their quality, and they play into our risk assessment.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Excuse me. I'm sorry. I may have misspoken, but I'm talking about the student visa holder from Pakistan, the latest alleged terrorist, not the son, but the student visa holder from Pakistan.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Miller Liberal Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC

I'm sorry. Again, this may be within or not within the scope of this discussion, Mr. Chair.

Again, the person, the latest alleged individual, came in as a student from Pakistan—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

That's correct.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Miller Liberal Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC

—and the details you have in your chronologies are the ones that I'm not at liberty to speak to at this time.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Minister, but I'm asking specifically about how in 2018 your government removed the requirement for police clearance certificates—ultimately, police background checks—from the country of origin, from countries like Pakistan.

Now we have a student visa holder from Pakistan who I'm assuming did not receive the police clearance certificate—unless you can correct me—but that requirement was removed in 2018. There was a security check removed. That requirement was removed in 2018 from Pakistan for student visa holders.

Now we have a situation in which your government has brought in a student visa holder from Pakistan who is alleged to be a terrorist. He was on his way to Brooklyn, New York, to massacre Jews. That was a situation in which there could have been an additional level of screening that your government removed in 2018. Have you reinstated the security requirement?

I'm hearing that you have not done that. I do feel that it's something quite easy that you could do, which could provide another layer of security, so that this doesn't happen again. Is that not reasonable?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Miller Liberal Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC

We rely on our security partners to advise us as to the risk profile to take with respect to these individuals.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

It's just a common-sense approach though, is it not?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Miller Liberal Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC

Again, you are assuming the reliability and the validity of police certificates, when our screening process is a lot more comprehensive—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I appreciate that, but for permanent residents from Pakistan—

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Chair, on a point of order, the practice here is that a question is asked and there is sufficient time for the minister to answer. I would ask that the rule be in place, so that we can actually hear the answer.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

Let's let the minister answer the question.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Miller Liberal Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC

We are confident in the progressive nature of the screening process. Police certificates can be requested.