Evidence of meeting #126 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was india.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nathalie Drouin  Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council Office and National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister, Privy Council Office
Michael Duheme  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
David Morrison  Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Daniel Rogers  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Tricia Geddes  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

We will continue to let the dust settle, and there's a lot of dust. We will work with our counterparts to ensure that both sides have adequate representation in each other's countries.

There's a process of screening when a country applies to accredit its diplomats. We work, as Global Affairs Canada, with the security agencies to ensure there's no adverse information. Assuming that's the case, then we accredit new diplomats.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Quickly, Commissioner, you mentioned here just a couple of minutes ago that it is reasonable to assume, and in fact it's occurring, that India also experiences violent extremism, just differently from what we experience here. You indicated that's a reality.

Now, is it possible that criminals from Canada are giving direction to operatives in India, just like it's alleged to be vice-versa to Canada?

Commr Michael Duheme

After coming out on October 14, anything's possible. We can't discount that, but that's the importance of working with our colleagues in India, so we can work together to address the people who are involved.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

We'll go now to Ms. O'Connell for five minutes, please.

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have to say that I'm quite concerned. Following my colleague Mr. Sarai's comments, we're just over an hour and a half into testimony. There have been about five rounds of questions for the Conservatives, and I think at least three of those rounds were focused on information that was given as background to the media and confirming that the information was not classified. We know this by the sheer fact that their own leader received the same information, and we all know he doesn't have a security clearance. Information that was provided to all leaders was also provided to the media, and Conservatives have spent at least three of their rounds on that issue—information that their party already had.

Then there's what we just heard from Mr. Motz. Instead of to Mr. Sarai's point about the very real threat to community members—I can only imagine how it felt and feels to hear these reports—Conservatives just went around asking about Canadian criminals in India. Not a single question was about the fact that the Indian government worked with organized crime—this is what is being alleged in the media—to target Canadians with violence. There's a murder investigation. There are other investigations ongoing, and there was not a single question from the Conservative Party about how that might impact our community here in Canada. In terms of asking about Canadian criminals abroad, I would think Canadians across this country, in particular in the Sikh community, the Indo-Canadian community, must find very cold comfort in what we just saw. I don't know how to continue to not call that out for what it is. I just think that Canadians deserve better.

I thank all of you for being here to try to shed some light on this.

We have our top security officials here for almost two hours, and that's the quality of question we had. I have to look at it from the community's perspective, and I'm quite disappointed that that's how the time was spent. It is for Conservatives to answer to constituents across this country as to why they would rather not call out the alleged actions of the Indian government, which have been widely reported.

With that being said, I want to speak to Madame Drouin. In terms of the sharing of that information with media, you mentioned something that was not brought up in the three panels of questions obsessing over that instead of over the safety of Canadians. It's the fact that those reporters and the journalists had other sources, and that, had Canadian representatives and officials not responded with the Canadian side of things, there was an understanding that they were dealing with a lot of misinformation that would have been left unchecked. Was it part of the strategy to ensure that information the Conservative Party already had was also shared with journalists, to make sure that misinformation wouldn't go unchecked?

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council Office and National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister, Privy Council Office

Nathalie Drouin

You're right that the strategy of using an international media outlet was to make sure that, based on what I said earlier, misinformation from India, repeating that Canadian media are part of the Canadian strategy using the India violence as a political means to achieve our goals.... The idea of using media, an international media outlet, was to make sure that the information would be spread widely and that our side of the story would be brought correctly.

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you.

Commissioner Duheme or anyone else who would like to comment on the question about the Indian government—my colleague Mr. Gaheer spoke about the reference to a Bollywood plot—and the idea that perhaps the Indian government was using organized criminals within their country, within even their own criminal justice systems.... Canada would not have been able to reach in, and, let's say, arrest that individual to disrupt that.

Was part of the reason for coming forward publicly to disrupt these sorts of serious allegations and actions in areas in which the police in Canada could not, in a traditional sense, go and follow where the investigation leads to pick up an individual or a criminal who may not be within our borders?

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Can you give a quick answer, please?

Commr Michael Duheme

The number one priority for us was public safety.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

We'll start our fourth round with Mr. Shipley.

You have five minutes, please.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

[Technical difficulty—Editor] I lost track. It was maybe four, five or six times—

A voice

It was nine times.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

It was nine times—my friend was keeping track—in her opening question, so I think the people who are being overly partisan are perhaps on the other side of the table today.

Anyway, we have a serious issue ahead of us. They can smirk, and they can laugh, but let's get into some of the questions here.

First, to Mr. Morrison and Ms. Drouin, an NSICOP report from 2019 stated:

CSIS observed an increase in Indian threat related activity targeting the Indo-Canadian diaspora [and] government institutions.

This same NSICOP report found:

Indian consular officials are maintaining “black lists” of dissidents, controlling travel visas to India...and recruiting community sources that are “engaging MPs and political candidates to advance Indian objectives.”

Given that each of your organizations presumably read this report at the time and knew about these activities, dating back to at least 2019, that very clearly fall outside the norm of diplomatic activity, why did the government wait until these threats had escalated to the point of violence and murder to expel any consular officials?

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

I think, as Nathalie said and as has been testified to today, various parts of the government have been live to the issue of foreign interference for a number of years and have been taking all kinds of measures. When the situation reached its apex, as has been described and as the RCMP has said, when they came to us and sought our help, we then used one of our heaviest diplomatic tools, which was the persona non grata tool.

I wouldn't assume that Indian foreign interference was not a constant subject of discussion throughout that time period of 2019 until the present, in all our interactions with India.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Ms. Drouin, would you like to comment?

12:40 p.m.

Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council Office and National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister, Privy Council Office

Nathalie Drouin

I'd like to add that India is also a priority in terms of the work CSIS is doing. As for the resources we deploy to identify the different plots, India is one of the countries to which we are paying more attention.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Duheme, thank you for being here today. Through a lot of the reports we've read and a lot of the indications, a lot of this crime that we're talking about going on here is being funnelled through organized crime groups that are here in Canada. What have we done, or what have you or your group or the government done, to disrupt the communication lines between organized crime groups and the Indian government, to ensure that this doesn't continue?

Commr Michael Duheme

Coming out publicly was one of the strategies we used to ensure that the message is out, that the community is aware, and that they will report it. It's making sure that people from the community do not fall victim to influence and whatnot. It's continuing to work with our government departments in terms of maintaining...not oversight, but a view of what's going on in Canada with regard to the Government of India's influence on criminal activities in Canada.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Thank you for that.

I have a quick question. I've really been intrigued today by Mr. Morrison and Ms. Drouin.

I'm going to quote your words back to both of you. You have both said that you decided to go to The Washington Post to make sure you went to a “respected” and “credible” newspaper. By that, do you mean there are no respected or credible newspapers in Canada?

12:40 p.m.

Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council Office and National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister, Privy Council Office

Nathalie Drouin

I think we said “international” outlet, sir, and this is a very important—

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

Well, you did say you wanted to go to a respected and credible news source, and you used The Washington Post.

12:40 p.m.

Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council Office and National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister, Privy Council Office

Nathalie Drouin

I said it was international. I think I explained that. That has nothing to do.... It's quite the contrary.

I also said in my opening remarks that the pretensions of India are not right. They pretend that our India file is politically motivated and that our media are into that scheme too. This is why we used an international outlet. We knew that those allegations from India would resurface. That was the nexus and the reason to go with an international outlet.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

We'll go now to Mr. Dhaliwal for five minutes, please.

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Over the past many weeks, my constituents have come to me. In fact, they have appreciated the leadership of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. They also thanked RCMP Commissioner Duheme, Mr. Rogers and the work that CSIS has done. The community feels at ease.

On the other hand, they keep on complaining to me about the Conservatives and their leader. Even today, I can see their line of questioning is not focusing on the perpetrators of crime, who are the agents of India. In fact, they are questioning you and all of those media things.

I'm coming back to Mr. Rogers here. I just need more clarification.

I just want to clarify an earlier point, which is that the Leader of the Opposition still needs a security clearance in order to read the NSICOP report and to learn about his own leadership race, because a lot of allegations are coming that agents of India were involved in installing him as leader of the Conservative Party.

Would he need a security clearance to know all of that? Can you elaborate on that, please?

12:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Daniel Rogers

I have to refrain from speaking to the specifics of any intelligence, so I have to go back to what I've said before, which is that we will be able to describe more and broader sets of intelligence to people with a security clearance.

In cases where that clearance is not available, we will look at the other mechanisms available to us, which might include things like threat reduction measures or other types of information briefings—defensive briefings or other briefings—to help reduce the threat that would apply with any opposition leader or any Canadian.