Public Safety Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Brent Jolly]

I can answer that.

Absolutely not. I think Meta's actions in the wake of the Online News Act were cowardly. I think they backed away as soon as possible because they understood there were going to be a lot of potential liabilities based on what was going on in the United States in the election that just took place and they didn't really want to be in that game.

It became a question of dollars and cents, and it just didn't matter to them. I think that reflects the public service mandate or their interest in serving the public. I mean, half a per cent, a rounding error...? I'm biased. I'm a journalist. I—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

That's all the time we have in this round.

[Brent Jolly]

Fair enough.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Gaheer.

We have two and a half minutes going to Ms. Michaud.

Go ahead.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Pugliese, I talked earlier about the open letter that Alex Cosh published on November 5, which was signed by a number of journalists and people in the field, to defend you. He asks Mr. Alexander to provide evidence or offer a public apology.

Since then, have you had any contact with Mr. Alexander? To your knowledge, does he seem to want to continue this war against you and the Canadian Association of Journalists, since a number of journalists seem to support you? Or does he seem to want to apologize?

[David Pugliese]

Madam Chair, I don't expect an apology from him, from Mr. Alexander. It was a good boost for me to see those journalists and academics. I think 56 have come to my support, as well as Brent with the CAJ, and a number of other organizations. Yeah, I don't see that. I don't see him apologizing.

However, quite frankly, when I look back at the testimony, he was telling your committee that I was intimidating a member of Parliament. I guess that's what I found incredible. Essentially, he accused me of two criminal acts: of being a traitor and of threatening a member of Parliament, who I don't even know.

I've used the word “unhinged”, and I'm going to use it again. I do not know his motives. I don't know what was going through his head. I'm sorry.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

In closing, Mr. Jolly, you described Mr. Alexander's remarks as dangerous at a time when we're trying to combat disinformation in all its forms.

Do you think that this type of statement can undermine the public's trust in the media and in journalists?

[Brent Jolly]

Yes.

Absolutely. I think it sows mistrust. It sows division. It makes people question what a journalist does and what their value is to society. I think undermining that is a dangerous principle that we can't tolerate.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacGregor, you have two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Jolly, I'll direct this question to you.

We know that this committee has been heavily involved in the foreign interference file, and we know that several countries are actively working to sow discord here in Canada. We can obviously see the result of that in how our politics are playing out. We know that various platforms have been carrying those messages. There have been talks about how we hold platforms accountable and about how we hold the people who are generating the content accountable, people who are in Ms. Chen's position, social media giants like Meta, X, Instagram and so on.

However, if you want to add to this conversation.... Ultimately, we've been looking at representatives from the whole spectrum, including our national security and intelligence agencies. You are knee-deep in this every single day with your profession, so from your perspective, what kinds of recommendations would you like to see in our report to the federal government? What things could the federal government concretely do to stop our foreign adversaries from sowing this kind of discord?

[Brent Jolly]

I was watching some of the previous committee meetings to get a sense of where things were and to get up to speed. I particularly appreciate the idea behind some of the Scandinavian countries to ensure information resilience and public literacy on this.

I think something that I see every day is that people don't understand the difference between a news report and an opinion article. Those are two completely different things, you know, but for some reason, that all sort of gets lumped into one because it appeared in the Ottawa Citizen or whatever. It's all one and the same in people's view. I think that journalists are, by their nature, storytellers, and I think we do a pretty abysmal job of telling our own story. What do we do? Why are we here? What is the purpose of journalists in a functioning democratic society? I think if we can distill that, that's a real win.

As for what this committee can do.... I mean, it's provincial jurisdiction because—God bless Canada and federalism—information literacy, media literacy, news literacy curricula and opportunities for that are where it's at.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to the last round, which, colleagues, I will shorten by one minute just to keep us on time. We'll have two four-minute rounds.

Mr. Motz, go right ahead.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here, witnesses. I appreciate your coming here.

Given the information that you've shared with committee members and in your testimony, you have steps that you take to maintain journalistic integrity. Could both of you explain how you go about doing that to prevent unknowingly spreading potential disinformation from any foreign actor?

[David Pugliese]

Madam Chair, a lot of my journalism is records-based. When a Canadian Forces person comes to me and says, “This is happening to me,” the first thing I say is, “Please provide me with your records.” Usually, they give me a lot of records, including personnel reports, access to information and privacy reports and official government documents. I then go to the Department of National Defence. There's a checks and balance issue here. I say, “This individual is saying this.” The Department of National Defence will come back. Usually, it will say, “Yes, that's happening.” I'll say, “Please comment,” and away we go.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Basically, to summarize, you ask for documentation and then you source your sources.

[David Pugliese]

That's correct. Yes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

From a broader Canadian perspective, based on both your experiences, what indicators should Canadians be looking for and watching out for to identify potential disinformation campaigns originating from any foreign hostile state?

[Brent Jolly]

A sense of critical thinking above all, I think, is the most foundational ingredient to be able to debunk ridiculousness like what we just saw here. It heartens me to hear that after the committee has had a chance to think through it or review the documents, they don't really pass muster.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm going to ask you to repeat that. Your mic wasn't on at the front end, so it's not going to show up for Canadians to hear.

You said Canadians should employ critical thinking.

[Brent Jolly]

Absolutely. To be able to decipher truth from falsehood, critical thinking is foundational. I don't know where we're going to be able to do that. The point about the education system...we have every province and territory. We're not teaching that, and that's—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Digital literacy is important.

[Brent Jolly]

Absolutely. It's a core principle, just like mathematics and an understanding of how biology works are.

People are on their smart phones right now. You are engaging in an environment where there is warfare going on right now. You need to have the tools to be able to fight back against that. If you don't, and you come with twigs and figs or something, you're going to lose. You're going to see misinformation and disinformation campaigns. You're going to see things like we saw down the street here a couple of years ago with the “freedom convoy” and all kinds of deleterious social things, so immunize.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much.

I appreciate both of your testimonies.

Madam Chair, if I could, in the seconds I have left, I would like to move a motion about this study.

I move:

That once the committee has conducted eight meetings on the study on Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada, the committee proceed to the following matters in order:

1. The committee concurrently undertake, allotting alternating meetings of not fewer than six meetings each, its agreed-upon study on the rise in violent crime and a study examining how addressing gaps in community mental health and substance use health supports, including preventative and early intervention services can improve public safety in Canada; that both the Minister of Public Safety and Minister of Mental Health and Addictions be invited to testify separately for one hour each in this study; that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House; and that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response to the report.

2. The committee invite the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Immigration to appear before the committee as soon as possible pursuant to the motion passed on September 19, 2024.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Mr. Shipley.

Are there any other hands up?

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Very briefly, I appreciate the motion Mr. Motz has brought forward today. I would like to add to that one thing which he may have missed in his list, which is particularly relevant this week.

Back in December 2023, this committee undertook a very serious and very heartfelt study on Paul Bernardo, and we haven't finished that yet, Chair. I know you're not our normal chair, but I want to get that on the record. I really think we need to get back to that, especially when the issue of his parole is coming up again. I'm sure the French and Mahaffy families would like some closure on that document.

I'd like to put that on there too. Canadians want answers and we really need to finish that study.