Evidence of meeting #132 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indian.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ward Elcock  Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Prabjot Singh  Legal Counsel, Sikh Federation (Canada)
Aaron Shull  Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

In that process, one would assume, based on intelligence, that process is constantly reviewed, and there would be thresholds in terms of at what point, for example, there is a risk to not informing Canadians. I point, again, to the RCMP's announcement and press conference. I can't imagine that a policy stance is taken, and then it doesn't matter what country X does because it's then never reviewed and there is not an ongoing process based on intelligence gathering.

5:05 p.m.

Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual

Ward Elcock

I assume there certainly would have been in the past, and I assume that would be true at this point in time. I would make the point that, frankly, although I have seen foreign interference over the years, certainly the last year has been a bit of a challenge in the sense that I have never seen anybody, any other country, attempt to assassinate Canadians in the past. We have reached somewhat of a new level in terms of foreign interference when that happens.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

Thank you, Mr. Elcock. Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

That concludes the first hour. To both witnesses, thank you for your testimony and thank you for appearing for this study. That concludes this portion of the meeting.

We're going to suspend for a few minutes to change panels. Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

I call this meeting back to order.

I'd like to welcome our witness for the second hour.

From the Centre for International Governance Innovation, we have Aaron Shull, managing director and general counsel, by video conference.

I now invite Mr. Shull to make an opening statement of five minutes.

Aaron Shull Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Thank you, Mr. Chair, vice-chair and members of the committee, for the opportunity to address the critical issue of foreign interference and criminal activities in Canada, specifically by agents of the Government of India.

To me, this issue strikes at the heart of our national sovereignty and public safety and, indeed, the integrity of our democracy. In my remarks today, I want to help clarify what happened, why it happened and what I think you can do about it.

Number one is what happened. The assassination of Hardeep Singh Nijjar in June 2023 was a flashpoint in uncovering the extent of foreign interference activities conducted by agents of the Government of India. Through investigations led by the RCMP and supported by CSIS, it became evident that these actions are part of a broader pattern of transnational repression. Indian diplomatic officials in Canada have been implicated in coordinating intelligence-gathering efforts and collaborating with criminal networks to intimidate and harm Canadian citizens.

The methods include espionage, whereby Indian officials gather intelligence on individuals within the Indo-Canadian community using diplomatic channels and coerced proxies, and criminal facilitation, whereby organized crime groups such as the Lawrence Bishnoi gang have been directed to carry out acts of violence, including assassination plots, intimidation campaigns and disinformation campaigns. Indian narratives have sought to polarize communities in Canada, labelling lawful advocacy for Sikh rights as extremism while amplifying propaganda through diaspora-targeted media.

This interference, however, is not isolated. Believe me, it reflects a deliberate strategy to suppress dissent and manipulate Canadian political and social systems to align with India's interests. Despite multiple diplomatic meetings and law enforcement interventions, the problem has persisted, underscoring the need for a stronger and more coordinated response.

Number two is why it happened. India perceives segments of the Canadian Sikh diaspora, particularly those advocating for Khalistan independence, as a direct threat to its national security and territorial integrity. This perception has driven the Indian government to conflate lawful political advocacy with violent extremism, resulting in a systematic campaign of surveillance, intimidation and violence targeting individuals and communities in Canada. India's actions are fuelled by its long-standing internal conflicts and an aggressive foreign policy aimed at silencing dissent abroad.

Number three is what I think you can do about it. First, expand CSIS and RCMP resources for counterintelligence operations targeting Indian proxies and agents. Under this, I think you should look at strengthening the threat reduction measures, or TRMs as they're referred to, to disrupt foreign intelligence networks and prevent imminent threats.

Second, use legislative and policy measures. Leverage the new tools under Bill C-70, such as production orders and cross-border information collection, to enhance investigations. Continue statutory reviews of intelligence legislation to make sure you're keeping pace with evolving threats and have flexibility in addressing emerging tactics.

Third is community protection and public outreach. I've heard other witnesses talk about the duty to warn. I think you need to maintain timely, transparent warnings for individuals facing credible threats, while also pairing these with robust protective measures, including law enforcement support and safety planning. There would be nothing quite like getting a notice that you are being targeted for assassination from a foreign state actor without anything else other than the warning. Build resilience within affected diaspora communities through education, direct engagement, public awareness campaigns and ensuring trust in Canadian institutions. Look at addressing the disinformation campaigns by countering narratives spread by Indian state media through coordinated efforts with the Department of Canadian Heritage and the CRTC.

The fourth area is diplomatic and multilateral efforts, so coordinating through coalitions like the Five Eyes and bilateral diplomatic channels. You need to make clear that violations of sovereignty through interference and violence will prompt significant consequences, and you can't just say it—you have to do it. You have to raise the cost.

The fifth area is a new idea that I don't think anyone else will have said. We should look at using speaking indictments. What I mean by that is that Canada should follow examples of jurisdictions like the United States in using speaking indictments to address and expose foreign interference.

A speaking indictment is more than a legal document. It's a public accountability tool. It details the evidence behind the criminal charges. It outlines the methods and actors involved and explains the broader context of foreign interference. It creates a clear narrative for the public. It names specific actors, including diplomats, proxies and criminal networks in an indictment, and it publicizes the risks and consequences of engaging in these activities.

As an example, in the United States, the Vikas Yadav superseding indictment effectively exposed the methods and coordination of foreign operations. In Canada, a similar tool could be used to detail India's role in directing and facilitating acts of violence, coercion and disinformation through both state and non-state actors. That superseding indictment read like a spy novel, but no one took issue with it. When it was an indictment, it did exactly what it was supposed to do.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

Thank you, Mr. Shull.

I have Mr. Motz for six minutes, please.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to our witness for participating today.

Obviously, as a think tank, the Centre for International Governance Innovation follows these sorts of things and has a view that many of us don't always have. I'd be interested to know from your perspective if Canada's legislative framework is sufficient and appropriate to properly combat the rising and more aggressive foreign interference.

5:20 p.m.

Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Aaron Shull

It's a great question, Mr. Motz.

I would say maybe two things. There's one answer that deals with our legislation. There are a bunch of statutory reviews that we're still waiting for. I think we should start there. Also, there are the legislative reviews and tune-ups that would be required, but also a national security strategy.

I appreciate what we're doing here. We're having one single conversation about one single government in one single area. It was ditto for the foreign interference commission, where we were looking at elections. Of course, it's much broader than that.

What I would urge is a strategy that looks at the relationships among trade, economic development, intellectual property theft, research support and defence industrial strategy. They're all connected, so I think treating them as categorically discrete things actually misses a huge opportunity.

The last thing I'll say is that adversarial states view these areas as strategically linked. I think it behooves us to do the same.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

I'm going to ask you to expand on that just a bit.

I was very intrigued with the testimony of our previous witness, Mr. Singh. He kind of alluded to the fact that sometimes a government needs to put aside its foreign policy for the sake of protecting potential domestic harms.

When you build a national security strategy, how do you properly marry that to...? Every country needs to have a relationship with its allies in other countries, obviously, but it also has to keep its citizens safe.

How do we do that and develop a national security strategy that is appropriate for as serious an issue as foreign interference?

5:25 p.m.

Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Aaron Shull

I'm a realist, and not in the Clausewitzian sense of the word. Obviously, I realize that there are strong states out there, and strong states are going to behave in any way they see fit. I think we're on the receiving end of a bit of that right now, where India is flexing its new-found muscle on the global stage. This is inevitably one of the things that you're going to see.

That being said, I think the highest order or highest concern of government is to keep citizens safe. If we're talking about a series of counterbalancing trade-offs, it's awfully hard to trade citizens' lives for the purposes of a trade deal.

I realize that the world's a complicated place, but I would just say that if we're going to be doing a strategy and if we're going to be looking at what the first objective is in the first sentence of that strategy, the highest responsibility of government is to keep Canadian citizens safe, period.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you. I appreciate that, because I think that is one of the government's initial responsibilities.

Does Canada have the capacity to handle the more aggressive foreign interference that we're seeing?

Is the current government taking sufficient action on foreign interference? If not, how can we improve that?

5:25 p.m.

Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Aaron Shull

It's interesting. With the example I was drawing from when I said we should look at speaking indictments, when that happened in the United States, you should read how the U.S. treated it. They caught the guy before he was able to commit the assassination. They deployed a sophisticated undercover apparatus. The charging document is beautiful.

I went to law school at Columbia, so I know a bit about the U.S. legal system. This individual's chances of successfully defending that prosecution are about 0%.

Look at the way it worked in the U.S. They interdicted it before it happened. Look at the way it happened here. Someone lost their life, and now there's an investigation.

When I'm thinking about the best way to answer your question, I would start to think about the resources of the RCMP and whether or not that institution as it's currently constructed is fit for service, because the 21st century is very different from the 20th. What does a modern police force that has to deal with everything from sophisticated foreign interference operations to cyber-attacks and on and on look like?

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you. I appreciate that.

You almost drew me in to ask a question about the RCMP, but I want to stick with the statement you made about this speaking indictment. It intrigues me.

What you're really saying is that the role of government in a situation like this is one of transparency, and that's really what a speaking indictment is. It's a transparency document.

How do we address the lack of transparency that's currently happening? How could this government, or any government, handle foreign interference, now and moving forward?

5:25 p.m.

Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Aaron Shull

That's it. I watched the press conferences, as you did, when the commissioner was out there. I looked at the previous witnesses' testimony. I've read all of the reports.

For us, it was drip, drip, drip. The story was revealed slowly. When we first really heard about it as Canadians.... Look, I'm not security cleared. I'm just some guy. I was watching this on TV, like everyone else. The story was revealing itself quite slowly, and it was unclear. As a consequence of that, we probably did a bit of a disservice to Canadians, because they were having a hard time following the shifting narrative. In contrast, in the U.S., you pick up that indictment, you know exactly what the guy did, who he was working with and how he did it. There is no room for debate, so the transparency piece through that mechanism is crystal clear.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you, Mr. Shull.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

We'll go to Mr. Sarai for six minutes.

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Thank you, Mr. Shull.

It's very interesting, listening about the speaking indictments. With you being a lawyer in the U.S. and me being a lawyer trained in Canada, I think the difference.... I agree with you. The speaking indictment of an American court is pretty appealing, because it actually lays out the exact evidence, how it was obtained and what it is, and the general public sees that before a person even stands trial. In contrast, in Canada, the accused usually gets the disclosure after being charged in court, and it's not really made public; it slowly trickles out. This is probably a difference between the Westminster model versus the American model of legal process.

Do you think there are ways that can be...? I don't know if you're also well versed in Canadian law, but could you give some opinion on how Canadians could do it better without changing our legal system in its entirety?

5:30 p.m.

Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Aaron Shull

For what it's worth, I did my LLM at Columbia law, but I did my first degree at Ottawa law, and my very first legal job was actually at the Crown attorney's office in Ottawa, as a summer student. I'm very proud of that.

I think all it would require is rolling over the information just to add additional particulars. I understand that we often talk about counterbalancing the rights of the accused—they're innocent before trial and all that type of stuff; I agree—but even in the courtroom, which is an open courtroom, the evidence comes out eventually anyway.

All I'm saying is to front-load your evidentiary claims. Just call your shot. Say, “This person did this. Here's the evidence we're going to pretend to rely on,” and then it's clear to everyone what happened and what the implications of it are, rather than having this shifting narrative. If the narrative shifts, hostile states get in there. The textbook growth area for disinformation is when you start to see a shifting narrative. If we can be clear about it, I think it's going to solve two problems for us.

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

You also mentioned disinformation, and there's a big problem with diaspora communities watching channels that are aired from India, China or other places, or are not really under CRTC purview.

What's the best method of countering disinformation for our Canadian audiences? We have done it—and I asked this the last time, I think—with Russian television's RT, which, under CRTC, got removed from cable networks, but what are other methods that other states you might have studied use that are better than what we do currently? How can we improve on how we deal with disinformation campaigns by foreign entities?

5:30 p.m.

Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Aaron Shull

The one distinction I wish to draw here is that, when we're talking about it, let's be crisp that we're speaking about information operations run by state actors, because normal people have the right to be wrong. You can say pretty much anything you want, so leaving aside individuals and the various free speech rights that go along with that, when it comes to state actors, we haven't talked about leaning on the sanctions regime at all, so that was one thing I advocated in a fairly pronounced way when it came to Russia.

Make it harder for people, because no one wakes up in the morning with a sense of civic duty to do disinformation operations. People want to get paid for it, so if you can make it harder for them to get paid to run these things, that's great. If it's on TV or whatever, then yes, you have the regulatory mechanisms that are available, but, to be frank, most of this stuff is social media, and I just advocated using your intelligence apparatus to find who what they call “the trolls” are. There are bot farms, which are computer programs, and then there are the trolls who run those things. Find the trolls and sanction them, and then, to the extent that it's possible, if CSE can use some of its offensive cyber-capabilities under Bill C-59, hammer them and try to take them off-line.

The NSA did it before the last election, so you watched what happened to Russian disinformation. They made it technically more difficult.

There are tools available for this, so I would encourage a hard look at those.

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

You also mentioned that diplomatic...getting strength diplomatically. I recall that when we had the two Michaels incarcerated in China, at one of the hearing dates, I think 16 or 16-plus ambassadors and high commissioners from around the world who were present in Beijing showed up at the hearing to show solidarity with Canada. It might have been more. I might be using a number much lower.

Do you think this is the type of solidarity that, beyond the Five Eyes, the west or western democratically aligned countries around the world need to show in banding together to compel countries like China, India and Russia to not engage in such forms of transnational aggression? Are there any strategies that other countries might have done that have been effective?

5:35 p.m.

Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Aaron Shull

Statements are important, but they're also cheap. They're just words, so, for me, this is about actions.

Let's be clear about what we're talking about. The point here is that you cannot come and kill Canadian citizens, so there's a cost that's extracted as a consequence of that. Look, owing to diplomatic immunity, which I support—there are good reasons under international law for having that—we couldn't prosecute, but that does not mean there should not be a consequence. Think about trade remedies; think about sanctions, and think about working together to punish this behaviour. There needs to be an actual corporeal, tangible consequence.

Statements are great, and I think that's your entry point, but for me there has to be a significant cost associated with this.