Evidence of meeting #136 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fentanyl.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho
Thank you, Mr. Motz.
We'll go to Mr. Shipley for five minutes.
Go ahead, please.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to return to the commissioner to ask some questions about fentanyl, right now.
Everybody has to agree that, across Canada, fentanyl is a very serious situation. It's harming many people and affecting families. It's right across the country. Obviously, it's across the world, but we're here today to talk about Canada.
Recently, the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs said that Canada is now a net exporter of fentanyl. I understand there's been some talk today about how much goes to the States and how much goes here.
Overall, Commissioner, would you agree with the statement by the Department of Foreign Affairs that Canada, right now, is a net exporter of fentanyl?
Commr Michael Duheme
Canada is producing quantities that it would be impossible for Canadian consumers to consume. There is an export. We are considered to be exporting some fentanyl.
As was mentioned earlier, my new trace goes to the United States, based on the intelligence that we have, but it is being exported at a greater cost than what the cartel is actually making from it right now.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Recently, 11 kilograms of fentanyl originally from Canada was seized at the Australian border. I'm not, obviously, an expert in the size of that, but I assume that 11 kilograms is a lot of fentanyl. Is that a lot?
Commr Michael Duheme
It is a lot. During my Five Eyes meetings, I do chat with my counterpart from Australia to see how we can work together—not that we don't work together but so that we have a stronger partnership in addressing fentanyl.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
That's just one example. Obviously, we're exporting it here now from this country.
Commissioner, could you also confirm that there are at least 350 organized crime groups operating in the domestic fentanyl market and that these groups are importing precursor chemicals into Canada, mostly from China, for the illegal production of fentanyl?
Commr Michael Duheme
I don't have the exact number of organized crime groups operating or importing precursors, but I could commit to look in our holdings and come back to you.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Yeah, the Chief Superintendent is nodding a little bit.
I know you're—
C/Supt Mathieu Bertrand
I don't have the exact number. I was agreeing with the commissioner, but we could get that figure from Criminal Intelligence Service Canada. We have that data in our holdings, yes.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
That would be great. I think that's really good to have because here at the public safety committee, we're always talking about many of the issues, and some of those are about auto theft, which I know my colleague, Ms. Michaud, has mentioned many times. A lot of that could be being fuelled by this, too, so that's why that would be good information to get if we could.
I would just like to talk about the United States. It's taken significant steps against the People's Republic of China to stop the illegal flow of fentanyl and its precursors into the country. It has sanctioned dozens of individuals and companies profiting from the illegal fentanyl trade, and both the U.S. and Mexico have bilateral working groups with China to consult on counter-narcotics and precursors.
As of October 2024, Canada has not made a request for a formal working group with China. Given that 82% of overdose deaths in 2023 involve fentanyl and that China is the main source country for illegal fentanyl precursor imports into Canada, should we not be willing to take steps similar to those of our North American allies? Do you not think that would help curb some of the situations going on here?
Commr Michael Duheme
I would say that either we take similar steps or we join our American colleagues and the Mexicans, becoming a stronger force to address it.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you for that.
Ms. O'Gorman, since 2019, Beijing banned the production and sale of fentanyl. How many kilograms of precursor chemicals were seized by our border officers?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Unfortunately, the way we classify precursors and other drugs is that they're all kind of lumped together. I will ask Mr. McCrorie. We have some data, but it's not exclusively on precursors. It's on a small amount of precursors and other drugs mixed in there.
Vice-President, Intelligence and Enforcement, Canada Border Services Agency
In terms of how we track the data, unfortunately, we can't break out the precursors from other drugs. In the first three quarters of this year, we seized over 21,000 kilograms of other drugs, narcotics, and precursor chemicals.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
How much time do I have, Madam Chair?
I have 20 seconds. That's....
Thank you.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho
Thank you very much.
Ms. O'Connell, you have five minutes, please.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here.
I want to follow up on Mr. Shipley's questions on the exporting of fentanyl, for example, because part of that, in fact, confirms that it's not just a question of borders. It's production. It's my understanding that, through investments in the RCMP, there have been 40 drug labs shut down since 2018.
Without going into any operational kinds of tactics that would help organize crime, can we talk about...? I would think that very large, clandestine drug labs would require intelligence-sharing and sophisticated RCMP investigations, and that the ability to do this type of work requires resources.
Could you speak a little bit about the investments to be able to do that work? If you shut down any labs at the production level, then the export of that becomes less of an issue at the borders.
Liberal
Commr Michael Duheme
If you read the CTV article, this happened at the end of last week. The RCMP seized several barrels of chemicals based on information provided by our U.S. colleagues.
To your question on where we're going, there are a couple of approaches here from the Canadian perspective.
Our CIROC initiative, the Canadian Integrated Response to Organized Crime, is putting the final touches on a fentanyl strategy. CIROC is made up of key police leaders from across the country who come together to discuss ongoing problems and tackle them together. That's one thing.
What we are looking at is shifting to where we have dedicated teams that are targeting strictly fentanyl, because when you have a drug team that is looking at different commodities—but considering what we're seeing.... With the additional funding we're hoping to get, the resources to target specific things when it comes to not only us, but....
We have a call with the president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police to make sure that all law enforcement are gathered together and are informed about what's going on on the border, as well as how to tackle fentanyl.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
When did that group looking specifically at fentanyl come together?
Commr Michael Duheme
I'll turn to Mat to see if he has anything on that, but we've had some groups via the different international committees that we've been working on. From there, there's been drums intelligence and then sometimes, we're successful in some of the operations.
Mat.
