Public Safety Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[Aaron McCrorie]

I like to think of it as layers of defence that start prior to the border. That's where, for example, IRCC requires a visa, and a portion of those are referred to us for security clearing. I think we did 34,000 applications last year and had a non-favourable recommendation for about 700 or 800 of them.

Our national targeting is—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm sorry. I'm just going to interrupt you for a minute because we've heard some of these numbers before, and I know we all can agree that we need to do a better job.

I just want to put a motion on notice before I pass the rest of my time to Mr. Lloyd:

Whereas break and enters against small businesses in Toronto have risen 19% in [the last] year, and the Ottawa Police Service is warning of an alarming rise in residential break and enters, the committee undertake a study on the issue of break and enters and home invasions in Canada of no less than three meetings; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.

I will turn the remainder of my time over to Mr. Lloyd.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Mr. Lloyd, you have just under three minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will also be putting a motion on notice:

Whereas new data shows that homicides in Canada have increased 27% and the homicide rate has increased from 1.71 to 1.94 per 100,000 Canadians since 2015, the committee undertake a study on the causes of homicide in Canada of no less than three meetings; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.

With my remaining time, I will ask this: Where are the majority of these transnational organized crime groups coming from? What countries are they tied to, generally?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Based on CISC's 2024 report, you have organized crime groups that work within the country, and you have a percentage—I don't have the exact number—that have international ties, if you wish.

We were talking about fentanyl earlier. We know that the Mexican cartel has a strong presence and is involved in the making and distribution of it.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

Maybe this is a question best put to the CBSA.

Can someone tell us what percentage of import containers are scanned at our ports, what percentage of import containers are scanned at land crossings and what percentage of containers are scanned at rail crossings?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't have the percentages, and we would typically not speak publicly about how we do our targeting and the numbers we scan. It depends on our risk. It depends on the information that we've received. Generally—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

We did have a representative from the union who said there's a zero per cent chance that anything will be scanned at a rail crossing. Is that true?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Again, it's disappointing that they felt the need to put that information out there without any more context.

I'm going to ask Mr. McCrorie to address that quite directly. Thank you for the question.

[Aaron McCrorie]

All goods coming into Canada need to be reported to the CBSA. As the president alluded to, we do a risk assessment of all those goods. We also have targeting in certain modes that allow us to target.

In any mode, when we have a suspicion, whether based on the targeting, our intel or our risk assessment, or based on the experience of well-trained border services officers, we will pull that conveyance aside and search it.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

We know that the U.S. discloses their percentages. Is there a reason why they can disclose their percentages, but Canada does not?

[Aaron McCrorie]

As I've suggested, we get data on all material coming into the country. We use that data to perform the risk assessments, and we prefer not to talk about how many actually will undergo an examination, because we don't want to give away our methodologies.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Would it be a number that Canadians would consider high, or a number that Canadians would consider low?

[Aaron McCrorie]

I think Canadians should take solace in the fact that we do a risk assessment on everything coming into the country.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you very much.

For the remaining five minutes, we'll go to Mr. MacDonald, please.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses again.

Quickly, I just want to touch on Bill C-70, Canada's new Countering Foreign Interference Act, which came into effect last June. How will the measures in that bill enhance the ability of CBSA to leverage intelligence at the border?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I wouldn't say that CBSA is a central player in foreign interference, but I will say that we are an active member of the national security community and we do have tools at our disposal, not least the ability to remove people. As I understand, it's sometimes quite challenging to obtain a criminal justice outcome for foreign interference, so sometimes the best outcome is removing somebody who is engaged in that activity from Canada. We have relevant tools.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you.

I know that back in 2017, we introduced legislation allowing CBSA officers to inspect imported and exported mail weighing 30 grams. I want to put this into context, so I'll ask you this: How many doses can be defined in approximately 30 grams of fentanyl?

[Erin O'Gorman]

A small number of pills can be mixed with other things and made into several doses, so I don't think I could give you an exact equation, but the fact is that people were sending pills through the mail.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Okay, thank you.

I know obviously your organizations have to be very agile. You mentioned at the beginning of this session that you're heading to Washington, D.C. in the near future.

Can you talk a little bit about the positive things that are happening in the relationships between the U.S.'s organizations and your organizations, and what could be improved?

Maybe each of you could take a quick run at that.

[Erin O'Gorman]

Sure. I'll start.

One of the good things that is happening is that we have people embedded in the U.S. targeting centre, and they will be sending somebody to us starting in January, so we're quite pleased about that.

We're coordinating our infrastructure investments, as I've already mentioned.

We're going to undertake a pre-clearance pilot that would have Canada Border Services Agency officers co-locate on the U.S. side and pre-clear people before they come to Canada. I'll say that's a pilot with the express purpose of seeing if it works, and I think that's quite important.

Working internationally, when we send liaison officers out, the first people they meet, in addition to meeting people in their host country, are their U.S. Customs and Border Protection and DEA counterparts.

As I said, information is being shared all the time to very good effect.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you.

Commissioner, would you like to comment?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

From an RCMP perspective, at national headquarters we have someone from the United States Border Patrol embedded in our national headquarters with our border team, as well as someone from the U.S. Coast Guard. The relationship we have with them is strong, and we're building and making it even stronger. There's good sharing of information. We're trying to align technology as well with U.S. BP so we don't duplicate things and so we can benefit from, on both sides of the border, the technology that's being used.

There's a lot of good work going on. Again, Aaron and I going down to Washington is really to meet the newly appointed people who are going to be responsible for it and build that relationship at the most senior level.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I'm just curious. We heard that approximately 0.2% of fentanyl in the U.S. comes from Canada. Where does the 99.8% come from that goes into the U.S.?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I have a report here from the U.S. BP and Homeland Security that dates back to July 2023. It does cite in the report that Canadian-produced fentanyl cannot currently compete with Mexican-sourced fentanyl in the Pacific northwest, and it is not currently known to enter the U.S. market at the retail level.

I've mentioned before that it's 140th the cost or price of what is being done in Canada. We strongly believe, based on the intelligence we have, and it's confirmed here by the U.S. BP, that the Mexican cartels' flow of fentanyl is coming up the west coast. We believe it is being predominantly used in the United States, because of its cost versus the cost of fentanyl produced here.