Public Safety Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Having so little time is disappointing. Thank you nonetheless, Madam Chair.

I have the same figures that Ms. Vandenbeld just mentioned. This comes from an article in La Presse, by investigative journalist Vincent Larouche, which said that of the 49,000 pounds of fentanyl seized over the past two years—I imagine it was at the U.S. border—only 53 pounds came from Canada; the rest came from Mexico. It would therefore be true to say that 0.1% or 0.2% of fentanyl entering the United States comes from Canada. According to the article, those figures are from the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration's "National Drug Threat Assessment," which is a periodic report listing the major threats associated with illegal drug trafficking. I understand that the Border Services Agency can't necessarily confirm those figures, but the quantities seized seem small compared to those from Mexico.

I don't know if Mr. Trump has made any statements about illegal drugs coming from Mexico, but this reminds me of the statements he made the first time he took office. Members will recall that he was proposing to build a wall at the southern border with Mexico. Now, suddenly, he seems to be attacking Canada. He says, perhaps jokingly, but still, that Canada could become the 51^st state of the United States. He also refers to the Prime Minister of Canada as a governor. In short, he seems to be making fun of Canada.

Why do you think Mr.Trump is doing this to Canada? I understand that this is a difficult question, because few people can grasp what's going through Mr. Trump's head, or explain what he thinks.

So the question is: when we see that such a situation can arise with our greatest ally, how does the Border Services Agency prepare for it, in cooperation with its partners? What can be done to prevent this type of perhaps impulsive behaviour from an American administration?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't want to repeat myself, but this is a very important point. We work very closely with other U.S. agencies, whether it's the U.S. Customs and Border Protection, or CBP, the Drug Enforcement Administration, or DEA, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF.

That being said, I don't know if everyone is familiar with our collaboration and successes.

Operationally, we are sharing information every day. Every intelligence report we create, we send to our U.S. counterparts as a matter of course. If we find a new way that drugs are hidden, we share it with the U.S.

Operationally, I'm not concerned that there's a view that our agency is not doing enough.

I don't know what's in the minds of people who say we're not doing enough, but the government has indicated that there's always more to be done, and that's the subject of ongoing discussions. In fact, the minister has said publicly that he's looking at additional investments.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

To the CBSA, I'm focusing on northbound contraband trafficking, so that originating in the United States and coming into Canada. Based on the data you have available at your agency from seizures made at ports, or in collaboration with the RCMP if they are seized farther inland, can you list the imports of greatest concern coming from the United States into Canada?

[Erin O'Gorman]

In the first three quarters of this year, CBSA seized 750 firearms. We do see many weapons and firearms coming northbound. We see people bringing currency. Bringing more than $10,000, without an explanation, leads us to suspect ill-gotten gains from travellers.

We see cocaine coming in. There was a major seizure of cocaine made by CBSA based on intelligence from the U.S. It was transiting from California to Europe. To my earlier comment, drugs are going all over all of the time. The agency seized 500,000 kilograms of tobacco.

The point was made about the revenue and the links to organized crime. I don't know if there's anything the commissioner would want to add.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that. I'll turn to you, Commissioner.

How has the RCMP seen the fentanyl trade evolve over the last decade? In the beginning, was it more like fentanyl coming in? Have we now evolved to a situation where the precursors are coming in? Is there more manufacturing happening within Canada? Is that how the evolution has roughly happened?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

There's more organized crime involved with fentanyl because it's so lucrative. It's very cheap to make. The return on investment is very high, which is concerning.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Mr. Motz, for five minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here. Thank you to both of your frontline organization members who are boots on the ground to stand in the gap at our borders and across this country. Thank you for that.

We know that, through an order paper question that was submitted, the Liberals lost track of some 30,000 individuals scheduled for deportation, which is troubling in itself. How can something like this possibly occur? Specifically, there are 29,730 people who have been issued warrants by immigration authorities, and they have failed to appear.

How does this happen?

[Erin O'Gorman]

On removals, indeed, you're right. The removals inventory we have right now is significant. It's not static. Last year, we removed over 16,000 people, the most in a decade. We're on track to do the same this year. Our officers are very focused on removals.

When people have gone through the immigration process, and they are not granted status, sometimes they've been here for years. It will be time for them to be removed, but it will take a bit of time. The school year will finish and so on. Our expectation is that people will leave when they are not granted status, and, indeed, many do.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Right, but keep in mind, Ma'am, that in the next two years, 2.4 million visas are due to expire. How do we, as a country, expect to have the people who should be leaving under those orders be leaving, when we can't keep track of the ones we have now at only 30,000?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Yes. There are the people who will leave voluntarily. There are the people who CBSA needs to help leave, and I say that not euphemistically: buy their ticket or perhaps put them in an immigration detention centre because we are concerned they will abscond. Also, then, there are those who our investigators and Aaron's staff are looking for all the time.

That's to say that we are putting in a big effort, as we did this year, to increase by 59%, but as you say—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

There's more to do. There's a lot more to do.

[Erin O'Gorman]

There's always more to do.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Let me move on.

We've seen this in the media. We know that the Americans have seen a huge increase in the number of people coming from Canada into the United States illegally.

It's estimated that between 2022 and 2024 that number increased by 82% to roughly around 19,000 people in those two years and, in fact, there has been about a 680% increase from 2015, from when this government took effect to now, in Canadians illegally crossing the border into the United States. Why?

How would you recommend that we reverse or mitigate this trend?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Some of it was mitigated with the imposition of a partial visa on Mexico and recent decisions by IRCC and the minister to tighten visa requirements and to end a process or temporary public policy for temporary resident visas. Those have all had a material impact, from what CBSA has seen, and we continue abroad—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay. I want to continue with the Canadians or people from Canada illegally entering the United States, but of greater concern than that—that is concerning in itself—there are nearly 1,200 people on various terror watch-lists who have been stopped by U.S. authorities from entering the United States from Canada. By contrast, the number of people on terror watch-lists entering the United States from Mexico in that same time period of three years was right around 200.

It's concerning. Why are U.S. border patrols able to interdict these individuals and we seem to have a problem?

Then, in a minute, I'm going to get to the question of how these people get into Canada in the first place.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll begin by saying that the way in which the U.S. reports their data is a subject of discussion.

A certain number of those people, when they say “interdicted” or “encountered”, are people going through a port of entry and are turned back to Canada—and that happens going the other way all the time. That's the system working, and they say they're on a terrorist watch-list. I don't have information in those specific databases, but I think it's important to understand—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

You have the access to those databases, do you not?

[Erin O'Gorman]

We do, and—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Yes.

[Erin O'Gorman]

—these are people whom the Americans turn around and so—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Right, so then my next question would be—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I'm so sorry. The time is up.