Public Safety Committee on Aug. 16th, 2022

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to echo my colleagues in thanking all of the witnesses for being before our committee and helping guide us through this inquiry of ours.

Chief Superintendent Campbell, I would like to start with you. Can you just reiterate for the committee how long it's been a practice of yours within the RCMP to use handwritten notes?

[C/Supt Darren Campbell]

I've used handwritten notes from the time I was a young recruit in Regina, which would have been in 1990.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You stated quite clearly that you stand by your notes. I would say the same about my notes. I frequently use them for committee hearings like the one we're having today.

Could you also explain to the committee, when members of the RCMP are using handwritten notes, what's the process whereby they are logged? Do they go into an official logbook? How are those records kept? Are there some examples where there are personal handwritten notes only for the officer in question's recollection, or are they logged with the detachment? I just want to know a little bit more about that process.

[C/Supt Darren Campbell]

Notes are used by all police officers. They are not the property of the officer. They are the property of the RCMP. Those notes are disclosable for any type of inquiry, investigation, any kind of legal proceedings. Those notes can be produced at any time. They are kept specific to those officers. They are not logged into a general notebook. Each officer would keep a notebook of their own. Specifically, for larger investigations, my practice would be normally to keep a separate notebook on that investigation.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

To be clear, when you wrote the notes on the April 28 conference call, this was simply a normal course of your duties, something you've done since you were an RCMP recruit. You really had no idea that the notes from that time would result in what all of Canada knows today.

[C/Supt Darren Campbell]

Not specifically in relation to where I find myself today.... However, I was concerned about what transpired during that meeting on April 28, 2020. I did make notes that reflect my recollection specifically of that meeting. Also, as I testified earlier, I was fully aware that those notes would become disclosable and that could become an issue at some point in time during a multitude of proceedings like this or the Mass Casualty Commission or other criminal trials related to this investigation.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for clarifying that.

In the previous meeting that our committee held at the end of July, we did hear from a number of witnesses. The previous minister of public safety, the Honourable Bill Blair, was very clear to point out that there's a hard line that he's never crossed in terms of giving operational directives to the RCMP. I think, however, there might be some confusion over whether this was an operational directive or a communication directive.

In your view, could you help clarify what your interpretation was during that conference call, or was it a little bit of both?

[C/Supt Darren Campbell]

I do believe that it was a bit of both. Any release of information that could have a negative or detrimental impact on an investigation falls into the operational side. I also believe that there was a potential benefit to releasing this information, so that's on the communication side. To answer your question, I would say it is both.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

When Commissioner Lucki stated on the call that this was tied to pending gun control legislation, we know with the benefit of hindsight that the order in council came in May 2020. Was any clarification given on that particular point on gun control legislation? Did anyone ask for further details, or was it just simply announced that it was tied to impending gun control legislation?

[C/Supt Darren Campbell]

Chair, it was an announcement that was made, and quite frankly I didn't want to hear anything more about it, and I didn't ask.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Was that the reaction around the room? Was there a similar reaction around the room with other participants on the conference call?

[C/Supt Darren Campbell]

I can speak to my observations of the reactions of others in the room. One of my colleagues is here with me today, Lia Scanlan, and perhaps she can answer your question as well.

I would say my perception was that the reactions were fairly consistent for those who were in the room with me.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Finally, Chief Superintendent, our committee is at a crossroads. We have, as you know now, wildly different interpretations of the same conference call. I'm trying to look forward to the future. When you look at the federal statute that governs the RCMP, specifically subsection 5(1), which really describes the role of the commissioner, there are some who say that this clause is sufficiently vague so there can be very different interpretations of what direction the minister is able to have on the commissioner.

Do you have any suggestions on how we, as legislators, can tackle this issue going forward?

[C/Supt Darren Campbell]

I think it's simple. I don't necessarily want to get into a policy debate specifically. However, allowing the police a level of independence—and that includes the commissioner of the RCMP and those who work within the organization and for the commissioner—and respecting that independence is important, because we do have a job and we take it very seriously. We wish to share information as much as we possibly can. That's always been our practice, although there are many who feel differently about that. There are very good reasons, as I explained, why there is certain information that we don't release.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Unfortunately, you'll have to wrap up.

[C/Supt Darren Campbell]

It's about independence.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you very much.

Now we will go back and start the rounds again. We go to the Conservative Party with MP Perkins for five minutes.

MP Perkins, please begin.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank the witnesses, and in particular the Nova Scotia RCMP officers and civilian employees, for doing such an amazing job and having such great integrity for us through this process.

My first question is for Superintendent Campbell.

In my understanding, Minister Blair testified before this committee that on April 23 there was a cabinet meeting. We also know from emails that later that day Commissioner Lucki emailed the Nova Scotia team seeking the list of firearms found in the vehicle and said that the government was anxious for this. We also know that later that evening she provided that to a number of civilians and the chief of staff, the minister and five other government officials, none of whom work for the RCMP. My understanding is also that the SIRC clearance was to only share that information within the RCMP.

Do you have any idea what kind of political pressure the minister was under in order to go around the SIRC requirement and provide that information, contrary to the directive, outside the RCMP?

[C/Supt Darren Campbell]

Just to clarify the question that was asked, what type of pressure the minister was under.... Could you just clarify?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

No, sorry, I meant the commissioner.

[C/Supt Darren Campbell]

As I already testified, I wasn't present at or party to those conversations. I don't know how much pressure, if any, was being placed on the commissioner, because I wasn't part of that, but I do believe that because of the emotions and the need for answers, there were many people who were asking a number of questions, and I would imagine that would have placed a considerable amount of pressure on the commissioner of the RCMP at that time.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Ms. Scanlan, in your testimony, your interviews with the Mass Casualty Commission, you mentioned that you had regular contact with Dan Brien, who was media relations and issues management for the RCMP. Is that correct?

[Lia Scanlan]

That's correct, yes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

In that statement, you said about Mr. Brien that he has tons of experience with government and people he knows. He was a connection into the government. Is that correct?

[Lia Scanlan]

Yes.