Evidence of meeting #36 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-21.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Fred Gaspar  Vice-President, Commercial and Trade Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
Commissioner Bryan Larkin  Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Kellie Paquette  Director General, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Talal Dakalbab  Assistant Deputy Minister, Crime Prevention Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 36 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

We will start by acknowledging that we are meeting on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin people.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, June 23, 2022, the committee commenced consideration of Bill C-21, an act to amend certain acts and to make certain consequential amendments.

With us today, we have the Honourable Marco Mendicino, Minister of Public Safety. We have as witnesses Rob Stewart, deputy minister; Talal Dakalbab, assistant deputy minister; and Fred Gaspar, vice-president, Canada Border Services Agency. As well, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Bryan Larkin, deputy commissioner, and Kellie Paquette, director general.

Please note that the minister and the deputy minister will be with us for the first hour. The remaining officials will stay for the second hour in order to answer questions from members.

With that, welcome to all.

I now invite Minister Mendicino to make an opening statement.

3:45 p.m.

Eglinton—Lawrence Ontario

Liberal

Marco Mendicino LiberalMinister of Public Safety

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to thank all the members of the committee for their good work on this study of Bill C‑21, which we will be discussing this afternoon.

With me today are members of my departmental team, Rob Stewart, deputy minister, and Talal Dakalbab, assistant deputy minister, along with Bryan Larkin and Kellie Paquette, representatives of the RCMP.

I want to make a few opening remarks about the scourge of gun violence, which has been impacting our country now for many years, and signal to this committee that it is up to us as parliamentarians to work together to reverse the alarming trends that have seen increases in gun violence and specifically in handgun violence. It is up to this committee not only to carefully study sensible laws that are designed with the intent of reversing those trends but also to discuss the efforts we are making to stop the illegal trafficking of guns at our borders. It is up to the members of the committee to support the work of Parliament in examining the root causes of gun crime, which requires us to work very closely with many partners, including grassroots organizations, so that we can stop gun crime before it starts. I look to you and to the various perspectives that you will be bringing from your own constituencies to have a thoughtful discussion about that today.

It is clear wherever you sit, regardless of the side of the aisle or partisan stripe, that the status quo won't do. Every time I meet with someone who has lost a loved one or who has been harmed by violence, I think we owe it to them to do more. These are far and away the most difficult conversations that I have in my capacity as a member of Parliament. I've had the privilege of speaking with the families of the victims from Portapique and Truro in Nova Scotia, from the Quebec City mosque, from the Polytechnique, from the Toronto Danforth in my hometown, and there's not a day that goes by that I don't think about them, not a single day. It is a singular motivation for me in this job to try to find a way to ensure that those tragedies don't ever occur again.

It's a complex problem. There are no easy or simple solutions to eradicating gun crime, and I readily acknowledge that, but from where I sit and from where the government sits, we need a comprehensive strategy.

That strategy is composed of a number of pillars. One is smart laws. From where we sit, assault-style rifles have no place in our communities, point final. That's why we banned them two years ago and that's why we're in the throes of implementing a buyback program that will get assault-style rifles out of our communities once and for all.

We need smart laws like Bill C-21, which, among other things, will introduce a national handgun freeze and introduce red flag and yellow flag protocols to reverse the trend in the connection between domestic violence and gender-based violence and the presence of guns, which has gone up tragically over the last number of years.

We need a bill that will provide additional tools to fight organized crime. One of the things that Bill C-21 will do when passed into law is increase maximum sentences from 10 to 14 years for those hardened criminals who would try to terrorize our communities with guns, as well as provide additional surveillance tools to law enforcement so that we can interdict those individuals who are trying to traffic guns, whether it's in our communities or at the borders.

This bill does all that. It also ensures that we deal with the challenges around straw purchasing so that criminals can be stopped from trying to use alternate individuals to purchase their guns lawfully and then have them transferred to them, and there is much more in there. I know that we're going to dig into some other substantive issues.

It is important that we study this bill. It is important that we take the steps that are necessary to stop the growth of a universe of guns and handguns, which have now become the number one type of gun used in homicides in the country.

That's not all we're doing. I have said on many occasions at this committee, in the House of Commons, in public that this government is invested in reinforcing our borders.

Over the past year, we have invested $321 million to enhance the integrity of our border. That investment has provided more resources for the RCMP, the Canada Border Services Agency and other police services. We have also worked closely with our American partners, whose cooperation has been significant.

I know that this is a challenge and that, despite all the progress we've made at the border, we must do more. I'm always ready to work toward other concrete solutions with my colleagues here on this committee and in the House and to continue making progress at the border.

In the end, we need to prevent gun violence.

We need to stop gun crime before it starts. That's why our building safer communities fund is such an important opportunity to work with local community organizations—to tap into their experience, tap into their wisdom, identify where the risks are, and identify those who are most exposed and can be exploited by organized crime and other elements that would put a gun in front of them so that they make the right choices instead. We have been accelerating the rollout of that fund over the last number of months, and I think it will help us round out a strategy that has to be comprehensive.

Once again, I want to thank all the members of this committee for their thoughtfulness and work.

I look forward to reading this bill, studying this bill and, hopefully, passing this bill as quickly as possible so that we can stop gun violence once and for all.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Minister, for your remarks.

We will proceed directly to questions, at this point, starting with Madame Dancho.

Please go ahead. You have six minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials, for being here today.

Minister, I know you've gone across the country, as have I, and met with police forces. What I'm hearing is that they are stretched quite thin. Are you hearing the same thing?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

There is no doubt that we need to support domestic law enforcement. That's one of the reasons we have created an anti-gun—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I'm sorry, Minister. What I'm asking is whether you have also heard that police forces—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I'm sorry. If I could complete the answer—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

What I'm asking is if you have heard that police forces' resources are stretched quite thin. They're having challenges keeping up with the crime we're seeing. That's what I have heard.

Do you agree?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I was trying to complete my answer, Ms. Dancho.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

If you could just say yes or no—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I think I'm being responsive to your question.

I acknowledge that we need to support domestic law enforcement, which is what we are doing through our anti-guns and gangs fund. Those resources are being transferred to provincial and territorial partners, and will, in turn, filter through to domestic police. We'll continue to do that.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Minister.

I take that as a tacit yes. You would agree that police resources are stretched thin and require more resources.

We're also seeing that violent crime has increased over the past seven years by 32%. Are you familiar with that statistic?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I'm alarmed by it, which is why we can't accept the status quo.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

The violent crime severity index is also up 18 points, and there were more than 124,000 additional violent crimes last year than in 2015. Are you familiar with that as well?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I am, which is why we presented Bill C-21.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

The vast majority of gun crime is caused by gangs and criminals using illegally obtained firearms. Do you agree?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

This is why we have new tools in Bill C-21 to combat organized crime.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

According to Toronto police, guns smuggled in from the United States represent upwards of nine out of 10 handguns used in crime.

Do you agree?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

This is why we've invested $321 million since last year and seized a record number of guns last year at the border.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

During the 2019 federal campaign, the Liberal platform stated that your confiscation of firearms regime would cost between $400 million and $600 million. Recent estimates put it upwards of $5 billion. That's considerably more money than you're investing in additional border protection. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I would begin by saying that assault-style rifles have no place in our communities, which is why we want to implement a buyback program to get them out, once and for all.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Will you be spending, according to your federal campaign, $400 million to $600 million? Estimates say that it may cost upwards of $5 billion. That's considerably more than you've invested in recent years in the border. It's also considerably more than your communities fund.

Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I would say two things in response to that question, Ms. Dancho.

First, we plan to be very transparent about the costing around the buyback program.

I also want to be clear with you and all members of this committee. There is no way to put a price on a life lost. All you have to do is look into the eyes of any of the families that have lost somebody to an assault-style rifle.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I think it is very concerning that we're seeing a rise in gun violence in our cities. As I outlined—and you seemed to agree—the problem certainly is gun smuggling. You're investing considerably less money in border enforcement and community protection, although you've acknowledged that is the primary source of gun violence in our country.

I want to switch gears a bit and talk about firearm owners. I am a firearm owner. We undergo rigorous licensing processes. We're trained, tested and vetted.

Would you agree?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

We do, and I respect law-abiding gun owners. I've visited their communities. I know they place safety as a premium value.