Public Safety Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Good.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We're listening very carefully to indigenous leaders to make sure that for those who hunt as part of their tradition or who hunt to eat, this bill will be consistent with those principles of reconciliation. I assure you that those conversations are ongoing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

We'll go now to Mr. Schiefke. You have five minutes, please.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the minister and his entire team for being here today.

Minister, I was very pleased to hear you say in your opening statement that Bill C‑21 was part of a multipronged plan. That plan includes investments in activities for young people to prevent them from joining street gangs, but also historic investments amounting to $321 million to strengthen our borders. That point is a source of pride in my riding of Vaudreuil—Soulanges. As you know, the CBSA officer training centre is located there, in Rigaud.

Please tell us how important those investments are in preventing illegal firearms from entering Canada.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Schiefke.

First of all, I want to emphasize the good work that our CBSA officers are doing at our border. They've made a lot of progress against gun violence. As I previously mentioned, they seized a record number of illegal firearms last year. Despite all that progress, we have to do more. Consequently, we'll continue making specific investments to provide additional resources at the border and to the RCMP.

Last spring, I had a chance to visit the school that trains new CBSA members in your riding. It was very inspiring. We have to continue supporting their efforts to combat gun violence.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you very much, Minister, for that response and also for the visit. I'm sure it was greatly appreciated by all of the newly trained agents who will be protecting our borders all across the country.

Minister, Bill C-21 is going to go a long way in protecting communities like mine in Vaudreuil—Soulanges and communities like Vaudreuil—Soulanges all across the country. I'm looking forward to diving in with committee members to try to strengthen the bill.

One of the questions that I and members of my community had was with regard to ghost guns. This was brought up by my colleague Mr. Noormohamed. We had an incident in Montreal just two months ago. A young man had purchased parts online and had put together a firearm that was used in violent crime in Montreal. I've received numerous emails and calls from constituents who are wondering if there's any way that we can combat this.

Minister, you mentioned earlier that you spoke with your colleagues in the United States, and I'm sure you've had discussions with other counterparts around the world. Have you heard from them any effective ways that they've been able to use to counter this? Can you share those with the committee so that you can help guide our work in the coming weeks?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It is not lost on me that the last number of months have been extremely difficult for Montreal. Last spring, I had the chance to participate in a forum to counter gun violence, at the invitation of Mayor Plante. In attending that particular forum, I was very struck by the young people who spoke about the friends that they had lost. Sadly, since then, we have seen ongoing shootings pretty much consistently and unabated. I have stayed in very close contact with both Mayor Plante, as well as my counterpart, Minister Guilbeault, to try to turn the tide around.

This is why in the summer, as you may recall, I went to announce funds directly for Quebec under the building safer communities fund in the amount of roughly $40 million, of which, I want to say, I believe $17 million or $18 million was to go to Montreal. These funds are specifically designed to stop gun crime before it occurs by looking at root causes, by working with local organizations and by enhancing their capacity to offer programs and services so that people who are at risk, especially young people, make the right choices.

We think this is a critical pillar in our overall strategy to reduce gun violence, and we think that the funds that we've allocated to Quebec and to Montreal will go some way towards achieving that goal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Schiefke.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Earlier Mr. MacGregor raised an issue that I'd also like to discuss with you, Minister.

On May 16 of this year, several women's groups sent you a letter expressing their concern about the “red flag” measure in Bill C‑21. They feel the measure is a real problem and even said it was counterproductive to allow victims to appear on their own in court to request that an attacker's gun be seized, for example. They say that could even increase the risk to victims. I saw that the bill provides ways to ensure the victim's anonymity, but, as you can understand, victims don't necessarily have all the means they need to do that in an intimate partner or domestic violence context.

That letter was sent to you on May 16, and the bill was introduced around May 30, if my memory serves me. In short, it was introduced a few days later. I understand that it must already have been drafted at that time and that you didn't have time to make any changes. However, the position of those women's groups hasn't changed. They still think it's a bad measure and propose instead that the measures already available be used and that the community be granted more powers over education, for example.

Now that you know all that, would you be prepared to amend the bill given the fears of the individuals directly concerned on the ground?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for your question.

The purpose of the new protocol proposed in Bill C‑21, the "red flag" law and the "yellow flag" law, is to reverse the trend of intimate partner violence and firearms possession.

However, I know that certain organizations representing women and women survivors have concerns, which is why we made amendments and, I believe, strengthened the provision in the bill. I should point out, however, that this is just an option; it isn't mandatory. It's another protective measure introduced for people who want to use it. I recognize that police services must be provided with resources so they can exercise the powers they currently have.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Do I have enough time to ask another question, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have three seconds left.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Never mind then.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We'll go now to Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, our first major report at this committee addressed gun and gang violence, and it was a study on which we all worked together quite well.

I've always approached the issue of gun violence by acknowledging that a single piece of legislation by itself is not going to address the problem. It has to be taken in context with policy, effective funding of law enforcement and working with international partners, etc., and I think you would agree with me. I think all colleagues would agree with me on that.

On the question of domestic diversion, I know that's a big rationale behind Bill C-21. We heard testimony at our committee of the dangers of people owning large numbers of handguns and setting themselves up as targets for criminal organizations. It's far easier to steal a handgun that's already present in Canada than to go to the trouble of trying to smuggle one across an international border.

We made a recommendation in that report to ask for additional research into the prevalence of domestic diversion. Since that report was issued, do you have any further updates from your department on how widespread the problem is? Are there any solutions, apart from what's in Bill C-21, that your government is considering for people who may be targets of criminal organizations?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Just that it is imperative that we continue to gather the best available data on the ratio of illegal importation to domestic trafficking. I know that is something the RCMP is going to be equipped to do in a greater capacity, as is the CBSA, specifically around tracing, because we've made investments to increase their ability to find the source of the guns.

By giving the RCMP those additional tools, we think we'll have an even clearer picture than we do right now about how many guns are coming in illegally, as opposed to those that are being transferred and trafficked illegally within the country.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'll leave it at that, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

I believe we have time for two more five-minute questions, so we'll go to Mr. Shipley for five minutes.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you. I may be splitting my time with Mr. Van Popta, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today. It's always nice to see you.

Throughout your dialogue today, Minister, you mentioned a couple times the great work this committee does. Mr. MacGregor just touched on a good report we did, which was “A Path Forward: Reducing Gun and Gang Violence in Canada”.

Minister, have you read that report?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Yes.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

So have I, as we all spent a lot of time on that one.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

You've done your homework.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I hope so.

In that report, we had 34 recommendations, and there was no recommendation for a nationwide handgun ban. Where is your data to support this handgun ban?

We did a lot of work on that and we didn't come up with that recommendation. Can you tell me where your rationale is?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

First, I do thank the committee for its work, and I know there a a diversity of opinions and views on an issue as important as firearms.

We introduced a national handgun freeze because of the alarming trends around the increase of handgun violence, and specifically because handguns are now the number one type of gun used in homicides. In my opinion, Mr. Shipley—and I don't know whether you agree with it—that is not arbitrary. There is a connection between the explosion of the handgun universe, which was increasing by approximately 45,000-55,000 new registrations a year for the last decade, and the fact that handguns are now the number one type of gun used in homicides. Our national handgun freeze is an effort to reverse that trend.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

We're all here trying to stop violence that's happening across Canada, in all of our cities especially. What we heard, though, from city after city and police chief after police chief, was that it was illegal handguns coming across the borders; it wasn't legal handgun owners.

If you don't have the data on that, I have had some people approach me on this issue who have told me, maybe cynically, that they thought this was more of a political situation and decision.

Is the data perhaps from some polling questions you've done across Canada for this decision?