Public Safety Committee on Feb. 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

We can see you and we can hear you, so I would suggest you just proceed.

[Mark Weber]

Okay. I'll keep speaking.

At the marine level, the overall reporting infrastructure is both insufficient and outdated. Once again, officers lack the necessary tools and authority to intervene, impacting their ability to intercept dangerous goods.

Perhaps most glaring of all are the rail mode operations, where, according to the union's own data, as of 2019, only one one-millionth of all rail cargo was effectively being examined. The reality is that our current operational abilities in the rail field are virtually non-existent. Canada has almost zero examination capabilities directly at the border, due in part to geographical issues, inadequate tools and political decisions not to force rail carriers to supply the necessary facilities. In other words, there's almost a zero per cent chance that any illegal weapons entering the country via rail will ever be found. All these operational gaps find themselves compounded by the aforementioned staffing shortage.

The message is clear: As things stand, not only is Canada's ability to prevent smuggling lacking, but its capacity to gather reliable and sound data is also inadequate. In our view, if the Government of Canada is serious about addressing the problem of illegal firearms smuggled across the border, the mandate of our border officers must be expanded to assist in patrolling between crossings.

It's a well-known fact that the border between Canada and our neighbours to the south is the longest undefended border in the world. While this is certainly a testament to the good relations between our countries, it also comes with its own unique set of security challenges. To mitigate these, we invite the Government of Canada to empower its CBSA officers to further help curb smuggling activities into Canada from land or sea routes, including between ports of entry.

Ultimately, we'd like to see the CBSA upper echelons rely more effectively on our members' unique expertise in the field of border security when it comes to policy decisions. Too often management will take a course of action that either does not take into account or blatantly disregards the realities in the field. We believe this could often be corrected through meaningful consultation with and the effective involvement of our members. We all have a stake in protecting our communities from harm, and that includes from gun violence.

In conclusion, it's my hope that the union's input will assist the committee in this important work. I thank you and I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Congratulations, Mr. Weber. You were five minutes to the second. It's an example for everybody.

[Mark Weber]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. Sauvé, I now invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes, including right on the schnozz. The floor is yours.

[Brian Sauvé, President, National Police Federation]

Thank you. I apologize for the delay. You have an excellent IT department, which got me in.

Thank you for inviting me to appear today. I'm Brian Sauvé, president of the National Police Federation, the sole certified bargaining agent representing close to 20,000 members of the RCMP across Canada and internationally.

I'll begin by acknowledging that I'm speaking from the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

In 2020, StatsCan reported over 3,500 firearms offenses, a 15% increase over 2019 and 84% greater than 2010. Canada has long prided itself as a safe, non-violent country, but firearms offenses and gang-related violence are on the rise.

Although nationwide data must still be collected, it is the experience of law enforcement that most of these guns are illegally obtained. For example, three of the firearms used during the April 2020 mass shooting in Nova Scotia that killed 22 people were illegally acquired from the United States.

Unfortunately, there's no easy fix to gun violence, and we need enough resources and dedicated units to lead investigations focused on curbing illegal activities. Today, I'll address three aspects related to gun crimes, with more detail on our recommendations in our submission.

First, we must address the RCMP's human and financial recruitment challenges. The RCMP plays an integral role in preventing gun violence, working alongside other agencies such as the CBSA and our municipal and provincial police counterparts. Over the past number of years, the RCMP has experienced new challenges such as staffing levels, recruitment and member well-being. All areas of policing, though, have experienced a significant increase in demand for services beyond crime prevention and law enforcement. Illegal firearms, gun crimes and violence remain top priorities for police, but to effectively address these issues, both police and social services need increased resources.

Second, the federal government should develop a national operational investigative program for illegal firearms smuggling: a unified program offering support, control and investigative tools to curb illegal firearms in Canada, and concentrated in one place. Evidence-based firearm controls are vital to ensuring that the ownership and use of firearms is as safe as possible. Resources should prioritize the criminal use of firearms, with a coordinated strategy that effectively combines prevention, law enforcement and social programs.

This program could also tackle gun smuggling. While border integrity teams work to intercept illegal firearms, current programs such as the national weapons enforcement support team seize hundreds of illegal firearms annually but must be fully supported to tackle the flow of illegal guns across the border.

The 2018 federal budget invested $327 million over five years to establish the initiative to take action against gun and gang violence. Of that, $34.5 million went to the RCMP to support the new integrated criminal firearms initiative, and we welcome this investment, but these initiatives will only be successful with proper funding to investigative units that focus on gun smuggling.

Third, we must understand the link between gang violence and criminality. Budget 2018 also allocated $214 million over five years to provinces to combat gun and gang violence. Our RCMP members work tirelessly to counteract gang recruitment, one example being the Surrey RCMP's “Shattering the Image” anti-gang program, which has proven quite successful. However, new funding and resources are still needed to expand existing programs and launch successful models in other regions.

As gun-related crime increases, the NPF encourages this committee to review the results of these initiatives and build a strategy to address and fund similar programs. Community programs, along with law enforcement, should be evidence based and results oriented. The 2018 summit on gun and gang violence concluded that a holistic approach to these issues is needed, and we agree. Addressing gang violence needs a committed, well-funded, multi-pronged approach that includes community programs.

At the same time, vulnerable communities also require protection from violent criminals, and well-resourced, well-conducted investigations, along with sentencing, will help drive deterrence. The government must address these issues and work in partnership with the RCMP and other agencies to develop adequate and efficient programs to guarantee the safety of all Canadians.

Thank you. I'm happy to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. Sauvé, you were on the top. Perfect. Holy smokes. If all witnesses and members were as punctual as this, life would be an easier place.

I would now like to open the floor to questions. For the interest of our witnesses, we have a number of rounds. This is all predetermined by a consensus of committee members. The first round is six minutes for each of the parties represented, and I would like to start by giving the floor over to Ms. Dancho.

Ms. Dancho, the floor is yours.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses very sincerely for all of the hard work they have been doing over the last number of years to keep Canadians safe. We are certainly depending on you. With the rise in violent crime, gun violence, gang violence, and drug deaths related to drug trafficking, Conservatives are extremely concerned that the trajectory is going in much the wrong direction despite the tremendous efforts by all of your agencies and unions and union members.

From the testimony what I'm hearing overall is that the problem, certainly with the rise of gang violence and gun crime, is from gangs. We know that is deeply driven by drug trafficking. We also heard a significant amount of testimony about the problem of gun smuggling across the border.

Mr. White, in your opening remarks you talked quite a bit about this, and it sounded like gun and gang violence are quite interrelated. Can you confirm again that gang violence is largely driven by drug trafficking and that gang violence is the primary contributor to gun violence in Canada?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

Thank you very much for your question.

Our intelligence and investigative work clearly indicates that one of the primary activities of street gangs is drug trafficking. In recent CISC work looking at street gangs, the estimate was that over 400 street gangs are operating in Canada. The vast majority of them use violence to further their criminal activities. A lot of their activities are very high visibility crimes, I'd say, like shootings. Some of their main activities are drug trafficking. It branches out as well to human trafficking and sex trade offences.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

What recommendations have you made to the government to combat these issues that you just outlined?

I'm sure you've made many, so if you can be concise that would be great.

[D/Commr Stephen White]

We're always working very closely with our government partners to try to identify new initiatives and activities that can help combat this.

Some things we are currently highlighting with regard to gangs and firearms violence are to increase the tracing of firearms and to develop much more robust intelligence sharing across all police services right across the country. Those two things are critical. We are receiving some additional funding and resources for tracing to enhance our activities in that regard. As well, we recently received funding to build the new Criminal Intelligence Service Canada, which is going to be used by all police services across Canada to develop, first of all, much more robust intelligence and to be able to share that in a much more modern and effective way.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Great. Thank you very much.

My understanding is that Ontario is the only province that has actually legislated that all firearms obtained in violent crimes need to be traced. Is that the case?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

To my knowledge, yes. I'm not sure if there are others. I think every province, to some degree, has a significant interest in tracing firearms. The reality is that of the number of firearms that were seized last year across the country—well over 30,000—the national tracing centre under the Canadian firearms program traced just a very small percentage of those handguns and other firearms.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Right. My understanding is that in the other provinces outside of Ontario, they will trace a firearm if it's relevant to solving the case, but police resources are very strapped as many witnesses have outlined already today. So it seems that it's something they'll do if they have to. As you mentioned, tracing seems to be a critical part of determining where these firearms come from that are used to commit violent crimes in Canada.

How long does that tracing take? For outsiders we're not even really sure what that means, and that's through the RCMP lab. Is that correct?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

Actually, that's through the Canadian tracing centre under the Canadian firearms program.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Yes, that's what I mean.

[D/Commr Stephen White]

It depends. At the tracing centre they try to go back as far as they can with regard to a firearm—right back, if they can, to the manufacturer, to the distributor. If it's an American firearm...distribution in the U.S. If it went from a retailer in the U.S. they go all the way up into possibly how it entered Canada, if it entered legally, if it was distributed from the retailer in Canada possibly to owners.

I would say, and I think I said it previously, that the process can be complex depending on how far you are able to go back and trace.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

So when you trace them to the United States—almost all of the testimony we hear refers to gun smuggling from the U.S.—it would seem that, if we can trace the guns there, then we can better collaborate with our American counterparts. However, my understanding is that it takes a lot of resources and many days, upwards of even 200 days, to properly trace a firearm, and not all are being traced.

Would you say that more resources from the federal government specifically for tracing firearms would help you to be more effective in ultimately solving the issue of gun violence from gang activity in Canada?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

Absolutely. As I mentioned, we recently received some additional funding for tracing, so we're going to add some additional resources to the tracing centre.

In terms of the overall impact on guns and gangs, tracing provides potential evidence on the sources of the specific crime, guns, and also develops very strategic and tactical intelligence. It's really that strategic intelligence that provides understanding of sources of illegal firearms, as well as patterns related to type and make as well as possible smuggling and trafficking routes and intelligence.... But to be able to do that, you have to trace a large number of guns to develop those trends and those patterns to try to identify those specific locations that are preferred for smuggling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Mr. White.

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. McKinnon, we go over to you for six minutes, more or less.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start with Mr. Weber.

Mr. Weber, you referred to the deficit reduction plan in 2011 as one of the causes of staff reductions, and you indicated that staff reductions are one of the particular problems with the interdiction of arms at the border.

I note that, since we took office in 2015, we've added 600 full-time equivalent positions. I'm wondering if that has helped the matter. Further to that, how much more do you think is required?

[Mark Weber]

The numbers that are being added, as far as we can tell, are covering attrition, so the actual overall number of frontline officers is not currently going up. We still have several ports that are running pretty much predominantly on overtime. In places like Windsor, it's almost unlimited, and at Lacolle, with what they have to process with the asylum seekers coming across Roxham Road, we're sending officers there from across the country to help with the volume.

Staffing-wise, if you ask me how many more would help, I think an extra thousand officers would be a good place to start. That would be a realistic number.

I think there's also work that could be done in how hiring at the CBSA is done. It used to be a nine-week program. The recruits were paid, and they were hired within their own region. They've changed that to a national program where they're not paid, and once recruits finish the program, they are sent all over the country. That greatly reduces the pool of candidates. We see many quitting during the program or shortly afterwards, which creates a system where, once their one year of apprenticeship is up, a good percentage of these officers then have to try to get back to where they are from. It's a system that seems to be designed to drag things out as long as possible and get officers working in places where they don't really want to be. I think that's an obvious and easy way that we could help our staffing.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Weber.

I'm going to segue to the RCMP.

Mr. White or other members of the RCMP, Commissioner Lucki, when she appeared before this committee in December, I believe, indicated that 73% of firearms used in violent incidents were deemed sourced within Canada and that 27% were smuggled.

With the bulk of those being domestically sourced, I'm wondering if we could drill down a bit more into where those firearms are coming from domestically. Are they straw purchases? Are they thefts of legally acquired weapons? Perhaps you could speak to that for a bit.