Public Safety Committee on Feb. 1st, 2022

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Okay.

We've heard in testimony so far that CBSA right now doesn't have the ability to patrol the border with the RCMP.

Can you explain to us how that can help to deal with gun trafficking? Can somebody explain that with clarity, why that would be important, aside from the fact that it's not the case currently?

[Scott Harris]

As I said before, we have the mandate primarily at the ports of entry. The RCMP have the mandate between the ports, so I would probably defer to them to speak to those efforts between the ports.

From a CBSA perspective, I think we want to have an intelligence-led approach to this and bring to bear our resources where they're most appropriate. This is so we're targeting those routes that we're identifying, as well as the actors that are involved in the smuggling of firearms, so we can effectively interrupt it not only at the border, but more importantly disrupt the activity on a more long-term basis, preventing it from getting—

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

If I may, is CBSA more skilled in this particular aspect of crime prevention?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Provide a very short answer, please.

[Scott Harris]

I would say that our expertise is in the area of customs and the application of the laws in that space, whereas the RCMP have the expertise in the Criminal Code.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, colleagues.

This ends the second round of questioning. We'll now move directly into the third round, which is a combination of five-minute and two and a half-minute slots. It begins with a five-minute slot for Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Lloyd, the floor is yours.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My primary questions are going to target Mr. Weber, Mr. Halina and Madam Paquette.

In terms of gun control, when we're talking about creating more paperwork, it's really only going to create a marginal and small impact on crime. When we're talking about increasing personnel, which has been a large recommendation today, we know how expensive that can be. We know we have an aging population. It's going to be incredibly hard to train, source and retain new people. I think we really need to start looking at alternative solutions along with those solutions. I really haven't heard about any alternative solutions except for nebulous technology things, so I'm going to focus in on technology.

Mr. Weber, you were talking about how it's virtually impossible to monitor the rail lines. I'm aware of a company in Canada, Patriot One Technologies, that's using artificial intelligence and radar scanning as a way to identify, through artificial intelligence and radar, when there are concealed weapons being involved. It has clients across the United States, including the United States government, major casinos and schools.

Is there any effort, funding or planning being put forward by border services to utilize these technologies as a force multiplier for personnel?

[Mark Weber]

Thank you for the question.

That I'm aware of, no.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay. It's disappointing. I'm not blaming you, but it seems like you're talking about how almost useless it is to have a telephone at ports of entry for people to make reports. This is an analog solution when we're living in a digital world. I think we need to be looking at digital solutions like artificial intelligence and blockchain technology.

To talk about blockchain technology, I'll be transferring over to Madame Paquette. As a gun owner myself—registered and non-registered—we have all this paperwork. We're content to do the paperwork, but gun owners are only seeing very marginal.... We're not really seeing how this is preventing criminals, who we know don't do the paperwork....

I was recently reading a paper from 2017 by Thomas Heston from Washington State University, which talks about the possibility of using blockchain technology as a way of creating private ledgers to track the sale and ownership of firearms. I see this as a way that we could possibly create a cost-effective gun control solution while making it less onerous for legal firearms owners.

Is the Canadian firearms program researching blockchain or how to use blockchain for any purposes?

[Kellie Paquette]

I would have to validate with the technical teams. I will take that back to make sure we are looking at that.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

No offence, but I'm just a little bit disappointed that people talk about technology, but the latest technology we're seeing in front of us on a day-to-day basis doesn't appear to be being integrated. I want to see more vision from this government in terms of ways we can make this more effective while making it less onerous on gun owners.

Mr. Halina, you're with tracing and laboratory services. I know you guys have a ballistics lab. Are you contemplating using any blockchain technology or artificial intelligence to track firearms?

[Don Halina, Director General, National Forensic Laboratory Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

For clarity, we do the forensic analysis of firearms on behalf of law enforcement agencies across Canadian with the exception of Ontario and Quebec, which have their own provincial labs.

We're not involved in the tracing of firearms. The one aspect where we are involved is the serial number restoration. We use a lot of different technologies to advance restoring obliterated serial numbers and then we pass on that information to the Canadian firearms program for tracing purposes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

Madame Paquette, going back to you, have there been instances where the Canadian firearms program has been hacked and firearms owners' private information has been leaked?

[Kellie Paquette]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Is that a concern that you have, or are you taking proactive measures to prevent that from happening?

[Kellie Paquette]

Yes, we are always looking at that to make sure that it is top of our mind to protect the information of the licence-holders.

I want to add on technology. With the recent investments, we are going to be redeveloping our national systems, looking at the utilization of the current technologies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. Lloyd, you have about eight seconds.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'll let it go there.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Noormohamed, on the other hand, you have five minutes in this round. The floor is yours.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thanks to all those who have joined us today.

I'd like to ask my question of Deputy Commissioner White, if I might. In the testimony today, we've heard—and correct me if I'm wrong—that 73% of the crimes that are being committed are done so with legally obtained weapons or weapons that could be traced back in Canada. On the back of that, I'm wondering if we are making the right investments in making sure that we are figuring out what could be done about the introduction of those weapons and understanding what might be done about those weapons versus focusing on the border, where some folks seem to think we should be really leaning in. I'm wondering what more we could be doing or what you think we should be doing to be leaning in on these domestically obtained weapons, or likely domestically obtained weapons?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

For the domestically obtained, obviously, again, it's going back to working with the police agencies that seize those firearms to identify the full details of the circumstances around that firearm, even though it was a legal firearm in Canada: who had it at the time it was seized by police and whether it was seized as part of a criminal investigation or other circumstances.

As for tracing that we talked about—and this is one area we're looking to go—it is about tracing a firearm back as far as we can, but also working with the police agency to get full details of the incidents when they seize that firearm and bring all that information together. They give us a much more strategic understanding of how all of those firearms are being used in criminal activities or being seized across the country.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Let me build on that. My friend Mr. Lloyd mentioned that as firearm owner, has registered and unregistered weapons. What would be the chain of events if Mr. Lloyd's unregistered weapon were somehow found to have been part of a criminal activity or a crime? What would happen in terms of the work that you have to do?

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

There's the substance of the question, but looping me in here into it is very inappropriate, Mr. Chair. I would ask that the opposite member would rescind that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I think the question, without the reference, can stand on its own.