Public Safety Committee on Oct. 25th, 2022

[Julie Saretsky]

In cowboy mounted shooting, the blanks that are used are very similar to what has been used in the film and television industry in creating westerns and such. It makes a lot of smoke, but you're not going to be gravely injured by a blank being discharged and shot from a single-action revolver.

We do a lot of entertainment in the form of public appearances as well. Our single-action revolvers and blanks are very similar to what is used in the film and television industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

That wraps up the questioning for this panel. I'd like to thank all the witnesses for sharing their time with us today, as well as their knowledge, expertise and concern. It is certainly a help to our study.

With that, we will suspend in order to bring in the next panel.

Thank you all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I now call this meeting back to order.

For the second panel with us today, we have two groups.

We have, as an individual, Lynda Kiejko. She's a civil engineer and an Olympian.

We also have the International Practical Shooting Confederation. We have Medha Russell in person today. She is an athlete, instructor and official. Online, we have Mr. James Smith, president of the National Range Officers Institute.

Thank you all for being here today. We will start by giving each group up to five minutes to make opening remarks.

We will start with Ms. Kiejko.

[Lynda Kiejko, Civil Engineer, Olympian, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My name is Lynda Kiejko. I'm a professional civil engineer. I'm a mother to three young children, a two-time Olympian in the sport of pistol shooting and currently the president of the Alberta Handgun Association.

This is a sport and an organization that I feel is now at risk from the proposals in Bill C-21.

I'm a medallist at both the Pan American and Commonwealth Games. Currently I spend a lot of time when I could be training or with my family applying for additional permits. This is on top of the process to be able to get an authorization to transport when I'm leaving the country to represent Canada.

I've represented Canada on the world stage for over 20 years. Quite honestly, I can say that there's no greater honour than being able to wear the maple leaf and represent my country.

Recent changes and the implementation of the handgun ban have done nothing to reduce violence, in my opinion. They've done nothing to increase public safety. However, they have added several weeks to my preparation for international competition. Since the ban on the import of handguns was placed into effect on August 19, I've spent more than two weeks communicating with a government department, only for them to realize that they were not able to process my export permit, which usually takes up to about six weeks to attain. I now have to pay to bring my own firearms back into the country when I represent Canada on the international stage.

I have just recently returned from Cairo, Egypt, after competing in the world championships. I will shortly depart for the Championship of the Americas in Peru. Instead of being mentally prepared for these competitions, I am now concerned about whether I'll receive my permits in time to be able to enter my own country and come home with my competitive equipment.

The advertised purpose of Bill C-21 is to increase public safety. I really would like someone to explain to me how my firearms are a hazard to public safety. I have young children in my home, and there is no way that I would jeopardize my own children's safety, let alone anyone else's.

I'm concerned about changing rules and regulations while I'm away from home representing Canada, which literally has just occurred. Last week, I was out of the country when the new announcement came out. I really don't want to become a criminal while I'm away from home representing the country because those rules have arbitrarily been changed. I don't want to be a criminal. I do want something done about criminal activity to actually increase public safety.

I compete internationally under the auspices of the Shooting Federation of Canada, which is a government-funded recognized national sports governing body for the target shooting sports of Canada. We are also an active member of the International Shooting Sport Federation, which is recognized by the IOC.

The ISSF oversees many target disciplines involving air rifles, air pistols, small-calibre rifles and pistols, and shotgun shooting sports. There are more than just the Olympic and Paralympic events and disciplines that are recognized by the ISSF. There are a lot of events that shift over time, but they're still recognized at that international level.

Bill C-21 is an attempt to manage criminal violence. It may have some components that help do that, but my concern is that components of this bill really strangle the large portion of our sports resources.

It's competitively practised by people who are 13 to well into their 80s and 90s. It is one of the most gender-inclusive, age-inclusive and physically inclusive sports that you could possibly find. Shooting sports of all types are very inclusive. It doesn't matter your age or ability. Achieving excellence in target shooting sports is something that is a common ground for everyone.

There are numerous highly competitive shooting sports that use pistols that are not in the Olympics. We really depend on these sports to identify talent. They help to create a pathway for athletes to become Olympians. I can say that this is true. I started straight into the Olympic disciplines when I was a child. However, I know several of my teammates, competitors and people whom I have met internationally started in those non-Olympic events to be able to become Olympians and internationally recognized competitors.

As the sole shooting Olympian representing Canada in Tokyo at the 2020 Olympics, I can say that attracting new shooters and identifying potential is already becoming very challenging. With the proposed new regulations, without any increase to public safety, there's economic hardship on law-abiding citizens and shooting ranges in Canada that host multiple shooting sports events.

Without these types of events, without these types of opportunities, our shooting ranges are also going to be at risk, which means that I now no longer have a place to train to be able to get to the Olympics.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Could you wrap it up, please?

[Lynda Kiejko]

Sure.

Competitive shooters in any event are highly focused and trained individuals. We really respect our equipment with the same regard as any other athlete, be it skiing, cycling or basketball. Shooting sports have the highest rating for safety of all sports.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go now to the International Practical Shooting Confederation. I don't know whether it's Ms. Russell or Mr. Smith who will be speaking.

[James Smith, President of the National Range Officers Institute, International Practical Shooting Confederation]

I'll start.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have five minutes, please.

[James Smith]

Good afternoon.

I would like to start by thanking the committee for the opportunity to present today. I'd also like to introduce my co-presenter, who is there in person, Medha Russell. She's a long-time competitive athlete and a six-time Canadian national champion.

I am presenting on behalf of the International Practical Shooting Confederation of Canada. Our purpose today is to have the committee consider amending Bill C-21 to have IPSC added as a sport discipline under proposed paragraph 97.1(b)(i) .

Even though Bill C-21 is not an outright handgun ban, it will result in a slow demise for our sport in Canada. Having no new athletes introduced to replace the existing competitors and being unable to replace equipment as it wears out will result in the end of our sport over time. It will also close the ranges for police officers and other agencies that use our ranges for training and result in no shooting for Olympics.

IPSC was first introduced in Canada as a sport in 1976. It has continued to expand since then and currently has over 5,000 participants in every province and territory in Canada. From the inception of the sport, Canada has been a world leader by implementing a mandatory requirement for a two-day safety course in order to participate in our sport via the black badge program. In addition to the original course, the athletes must participate in regular matches to maintain their status and compete in the sport.

IPSC athletes in Canada compete and train at their local clubs, and the best from each province qualify to compete at the national championships, where the best are then chosen to advance to the World Shoot. The World Shoot is like the Olympics and is held every three years. We have proud Canadian athletes representing Canada at these international competitions every three years, typically with a minimum of 60 participants. In addition to the athletes in our sport, we also have a cadre of over 600 internationally respected coaches and officials who participate in Canada and are in demand in the rest of the world.

The International Practical Shooting Confederation is the largest shooting sport association in the world, with 109 member countries. This includes some of the countries that have banned handgun ownership, such as the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Australia, all of which allow athletes to compete and train in IPSC competitions.

Internationally, IPSC has been working toward recognition and possible inclusion in the Olympics and has recently been added as a full member of the Global Association of International Sports Federations, or GAISF, which is the umbrella organization for all Olympic and non-Olympic sports internationally. IPSC is a member as well of the Alliance of Independent Recognised Members of Sport. IPSC has also joined the World Anti-Doping Agency and has implemented its practices as well as policies on ethics, conflict of interest and gender equality.

In summary, the addition of IPSC as an exempted sport in the legislation would allow existing and future athletes, coaches and officials, who currently devote hundreds of hours a year in pursuit of excellence, the ability to continue in our sport.

Thank you. I'll turn it over to Medha.

[Medha Russell, Athlete, Instructor and Official, International Practical Shooting Confederation]

Mr. Chair, and members of the SECU committee, thank you for inviting the IPSC community to your meeting to present what we do, who we are and why we do it.

First of all, who am I?

I'm a Canadian who came here at a very young age, and who was taught from a very young age the three Rs, which, as we know from school, are reading, writing and arithmetic. I was also taught by my parents, again at a very early age, an additional three Rs, which today I and the IPSC community follow. These are responsibility, respect and recognition.

What do those three Rs represent in my sport of IPSC?

Responsibility means that there are good and bad consequences for your actions. I joined the sport of IPSC only with one key understanding—safety must be and is number one.

Respect means that we are inclusive and diverse and that we tolerate and understand differences. Regardless of age, sex, orientation, culture or religion, people from all walks of life are members. Like everyone here, we are all members of the same race, the human race.

Recognition means that we emulate, admire and strive for excellence. What you put in is what you put out.

I learned all these things at an early age from my parents, who were teaching professionals.

I'll roll it forward to 31 years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry; I'm going to have to ask you to wrap it up in 15 seconds.

[Medha Russell]

Okay.

I joined because we need more women in our sport. I'm an athlete. I represented Canada proudly in our opening ceremonies. I am now also an official, chief range officer, an instructor and the first coach in Canada.

At the age of 62 years, I am the only woman in North America to win an international level 3 championship. This sport has allowed me to strive for this excellence, to do the best I can, to have safe fun in a controlled, regulated organization that is international, has governance, has a code of ethics, recognizes diversity, and above all places safety at number one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll start our questions now.

Our first round is with Mr. Motz for six minutes, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Thank you to Ms. Kiejko and Ms. Russell for representing us as well as they have on the international front. We too are very proud of you.

Let me start by apologizing for another misguided attempt at public safety by this government, which is out of touch on public safety in firearms issues. I apologize on behalf of them for the impact that it will have on your sports.

Ms. Kiejko, would you say that banning legally owned handguns, owned by those who have a licence and are law-abiding sport shooters and handgun owners, will prevent gun violence in this country?

[Lynda Kiejko]

Banning law-abiding citizens from having firearms I don't think does anything for public safety. I don't think it does anything to reduce violence.

When you look at statistics for violent acts within Canada from Statistics Canada, we're talking about 3% of violent acts within Canada that are done with firearms. If you want to deal with violence in Canada, then you deal with the 97%, and it will likely also include that 3% of firearms activities. Of those firearms activities that have violence in them, I'm going to say that the majority are not by law-abiding citizens.

All of us who have firearms are competitive; we go to the range and we train. To be able to attend any sort of a range or to take our firearms out or transport them, we have to go through rigorous safety protocols and courses. We have continual safety checks—24 hours a day—and reference checks all the time.

When it comes to public safety, I don't see how limiting my use of firearms and limiting law-abiding use of firearms actually affects anybody's public safety.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

I'm sure both of you—Ms. Russell and Ms. Kiejko—woke up one morning and all of a sudden you were Olympians, international sports shooters. It just happened.

We know different. Ms. Kiejko, you started at age 11, and it took you many, many years—as it did you, Ms. Russell—to acquire the skills.

With Bill C-21, how is it possible to pass on the legacy and tradition that have been instilled in both of your families in this way of life?

[Lynda Kiejko]

I don't think that it is, honestly.

The regulations in place right now call out Olympians and sport shooters, but I think they should be expanded to be more inclusive of sport shooters. There are many more disciplines than just the Olympics.

However, in terms of getting new people into the sport, to bring more talent in, to be able to coach, to possibly teach my children the shooting sport, this is a huge barrier to being able to pass that on, to be able to have them do the safety courses and to compete as well.

I think it was asked in the previous panel how you prove that you are an Olympic shooter. I have the same question. How are we supposed to prove who is in competitive shooting and who is not? I don't know the difference between the safety of an Olympic shooter and a recreational shooter, quite honestly. The people I train with are just as safe.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm going to cut you off because I want to move on to another line of questioning.

Obviously there's a significant difference between a sport shooter—a licensed firearm owner who is law-abiding—and a criminal who would commit offences with a firearm. We know that. We also know, again, that this legislation will do absolutely nothing to improve public safety. Unfortunately, it will not deal with the issues we're trying to deal with on illegally obtained firearms and illegal use of firearms.

Does either one of you see anything in Bill C-21 that would prevent gun crime?

I'll start with you, Ms. Russell.

[Medha Russell]

We need legislation, regulations and policy. We have them in our sport. We recognize they are critical and important. Therefore, safety is number one.

Bill C-21 has provisions for public safety, but what the people making these laws need to recognize is that they need to address the 90%—or whatever that exact percentage is—of criminals or illegal persons who have no respect for life. Respect is very important in our sport. They are the ones this bill needs to address.

We are legal, law-abiding firearms owners. I don't know the exact number—hundreds of thousands. We are vetted 24-7 by the federal CPIC system. Therefore, if I were to do anything, a law enforcement officer will flag that and go to investigate, which they should. Safety is number one. We don't deny that. Therefore, through our governance and structure and the way we organize our sport, we and other shooting sports that exist in Canada ensure that this is critical and number one.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, both of you, for your comments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

We go now to Ms. Damoff. Ms. Damoff, go ahead for six minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you so much.

Thank you to all our witnesses for being here today, and to the ladies here who have represented Canada on the international stage. I want to thank them for representing our country.

Mr. Smith, it's nice to see you. I have a question for you.

The United Kingdom has much stricter gun control laws than we do here in Canada, yet they put a team in the Olympics every year. I've been on their website and they talk about their long history of success in shooting sports at the Olympics.

Can you explain to us how Great Britain continues to encourage people to be in the Olympics while also having a handgun ban in the country?

[James Smith]

I can only speak to the idea of C competitors, but at the World Shoot, the U.K. always has a team, as does Northern Ireland.

We have a gentleman from the U.K. who comes to Canada to shoot, and he has explained their laws. The handgun ban isn't complete in the U.K. The Channel Islands and Isle of Man both allow handgun ownership, as does Northern Ireland. The people in our sport who want to participate travel to those locations, train and compete there, and then compete on the world stage.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Smith, you were quoted as saying that should IPSC be granted an exemption, “We will become the gateway to handgun ownership in Canada and can expect a huge increase in membership. This has been brought up because they do not want to end up with IPSC being used for general shooters to acquire handguns and not truly be competitors.”

I think that gets to the heart of the issue we have. I have heard from constituents and advocates. Their concern about opening this up further is that IPSC could become, as you said, “the gateway to handgun ownership”.

I'm wondering how we can ensure that's not going to happen—IPSC becoming the gateway to circumventing the freeze we put on handgun ownership.