Public Safety Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

There was no direction provided whatsoever.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Is it normal, Commissioner, for the minister's office to ask questions, particularly in this case, which was the worst mass shooting in Canadian history? Is it not normal that the minister or his staff would be asking you questions about what was transpiring?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Absolutely, each and every day, and despite this event, this happens weekly, this happens daily. Obviously in preparation for question period we get lots of questions as well, but in a major event like this, it's not unusual for us to provide information. We get questions for clarification back, and we clarify these if we can. That's part and parcel of my responsibilities.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Commissioner, I read the transcript of the call you had with the Nova Scotia RCMP and we've heard accusations that you were overly emotional during the call. What I read and what I heard was a commissioner who was echoing the frustration that all Canadians had about the lack of communication being provided by the Nova Scotia RCMP.

Were you being overly emotional, Commissioner, or were you in fact holding the Nova Scotia RCMP to account, as commissioner?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I appreciate that you say all of this because I was very careful of being calm. I knew they were feeling very traumatized by what was going on. There was a lot of pressure put on them each and every day during this event, with 22 crime scenes and a lot of information.

It's never pleasant to have a conversation when somebody is not meeting your expectations. That's why I thought about it. I didn't have it earlier on. I was very temperate in my approach. I was very calm; I didn't make it personal. It was more about the behaviour and how we could move forward to meet our expectations.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Earlier in questioning, you were accused of harassing the Nova Scotia RCMP.

People in your position, as commissioner, need to have hard conversations with people who work for them. Would you consider this a hard conversation, or were you harassing the Nova Scotia RCMP?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It was a difficult conversation because they didn't have the capacity. There was a lot of negative narrative coming out in the media, so it was very difficult. That was why it was so crucial that I have this conversation so we could be more proactive and more strategic about our communications.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Commissioner, I know you probably won't say it, but as a woman you've been labelled as being overly emotional, as harassing your staff. Your judgment has been called into question.

We see this repeatedly said about women in leadership positions, namely that when they're being assertive and doing their job, they're accused of being overly emotional. If it were a man in that position, I don't think the same questions would be asked.

I don't know if you would agree with that, or not, Commissioner. I know you probably....

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

These are difficult times for all leaders. I find it difficult, especially when my integrity is being questioned, because as a police officer I pride myself on my integrity—and, having over 37 years of policing, to have my integrity questioned by anybody I find a bit offensive.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

You have repeatedly assured us that you were not provided with any direction from the minister's office. As I said, when I read the transcript, I saw someone doing their job in holding the RCMP to account. That's what we expect the commissioner to do in taking her job forward.

I'm not sure how much time I have left, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have a minute and a half.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

On the order in council to prohibit the firearms, Commissioner, did the RCMP provide input in creating the order in council? How long would you have been working with the minister's office on that?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

In any legislation, if it affects policing, we're always.... Not only us, but all of the policing community under the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.... This would have been going on for a couple of years. It's no different from the cannabis legislation or online harms. For any legislation that's going to affect policing, especially in enforcement, we would absolutely be consulted along with our other colleagues.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

So the fact that you brought up pending firearms legislation is not betraying any confidences. In fact, the Nova Scotia RCMP probably should have been aware as well that this was coming forward, but this had nothing to do with pending legislation but was rather just stating a fact that was well known by Canadians.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Absolutely. It wasn't going to change anything in future dealings, and it wouldn't affect the integrity of any investigation either.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

I noticed after the incident in Saskatchewan that the response from the RCMP seemed to have improved. Would you say that there were lessons learned after Nova Scotia in terms of communications with the public?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Absolutely. In fact, at the beginning of that event, on behalf of the RCMP I called in the person who was overseeing the Mass Casualty Commission just to make sure that no mistake was ever repeated during that.

With regard to the flow of information, for or an event like what happened in Nova Scotia, I should be briefed minimally twice a day. I had two briefings in six days. That shows you that the flow of information was not there.

I don't like to point fingers, because a small division like that would not have the capacity of a bigger division. In the recording, you hear Ms. Scanlan talk about there being four people and working 20 hours a day. It's a tough to try to get the information out to the Canadian public and Nova Scotians, and they deserve no less.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Ms. Michaud, you have six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner Lucki, thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.

At the April 28, 2020, meeting, which we received a transcript of, you said:

...it was a request that I got um, from the Minister's office. And I shared with the Minister that um, that it in fact was going to be in the uh, in the news release and it wasn't.

You mentioned a request. Can you give us more detail about that request? Can you tell us who it came from, whether it was the minister himself or a member of his team in particular?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It definitely wasn't from the minister. It would have been from his office and probably the chief of staff, Zita Astravas. It was just more of a confirmation. After getting the speaking notes, I would imagine they'd already gotten a copy of one of the versions of the speaking notes of Superintendent Darren Campbell, and it was more of a clarifying question if, in fact, the information on the weapons would be included in that media release.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

In your opinion, when the government sent a request through the minister's office or the Prime Minister's Office, did they just want that information or did they want to control the message that was going to be delivered at that press conference?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No, absolutely not. There was no question about the content or what type of information would be provided. It was simply about if it were going to be provided—and it wasn't just the minister's office requesting; it was the media. There were other government bureaucrats asking and people within our organization who were trying to get the information out in as timely a way as we could.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

In the same transcript, you say that you'd already received the request from the minister's office to follow up on what was said at the press conference. You say that you will have to apologize and have a conversation with him after the press conference.

Earlier, when I asked the minister this question, he said he had no recollection of a conversation he had with you following the press conference. Is that what you remember as well? Was there a conversation between you or representatives from your offices? If so, what was the topic of this discussion?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

There was no specific conversation with the minister on this. I believe that it was more of a back-and-forth on email and it was basically: When I referred to an apology, you asked if the information was going to be included. I advised you that it was. Sorry, that was not the case, I was misinformed. I was given the wrong information and it was not in fact included.

It did, in fact, get included in a question-and-answer later on. In that particular meeting, that is when I was actually advised that no further information would be given, because it might affect the integrity of future investigations. That was relayed back to bureaucrats and the minister's office, saying that we won't be speaking any further about the weapons at this point. That was the end of the conversation.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

In the transcript, you seemed to be upset because you hadn't received certain information. You even said so in some of the testimony.

Do you think that members of the minister's office and the Prime Minister's Office were also upset by the fact that they hadn't received certain information or that some information wasn't made public?

Do you think the ministers were upset, as you were, that certain information hadn't been disclosed?