Public Safety Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Ms. Bendayan, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I, too, would like to thank our witnesses. Ms. Rathjen and Ms. Provost, from PolySeSouvient, words fail when I try to express my gratitude, but I would like once again to thank you for the exceptional work that you do so that the tragedy that befell Outremont 33 years ago never ever happens again in Canada.

I would like to go back to a question that was asked earlier about sport shooters. The bill contains a targeted exception for those who are training for an Olympic or Paralympic sport.

However, certain members of the Opposition, such as those from the NDP, are asking for an exemption for competitions organized by the International Practical Shooting Confederation, the IPSC. The firearms lobby is backing this request, which is not very surprising, given that the exemption would create a loophole in the firearms ban. Even the Shooting Federation of Canada has stated that if more exemptions were granted, it would be akin to facilitating handgun ownership in Canada.

It's certainly worrying, especially given that 80% of Canadians would like to see stricter firearms controls.

I know you have already spoken about this, but do you have anything more to say about the dangers associated with such an exemption?

[Heidi Rathjen]

First of all, not only are the majority of Canadians in favour of a ban on the type of weapons used in these sports, but the majority of firearm owners are in favour of banning assault-style guns. What's more, a number of surveys show that between half and two thirds of gun owners are also in favour of a ban on handguns.

Amongst firearm owners, only a minority use handguns or assault-style firearms for sport shooting. Amongst those, there is a minority that plays war or role-playing games in which they imitate police officers or simulate self-defence scenarios. It is that group that constitutes the firearms lobby. Actually, that is the firearms lobby. The IPSC is funded by the arms industry. It promotes handguns and assault-style weapons, and that's its bread and butter.

If you grant an exemption for this type of shooting sport, which is the polar opposite of what a legitimate Olympic sport is, the ban will mean nothing. Current handgun owners can keep their guns and continue to practise shooting sports. We just want to keep the situation from getting worse and keep shooting clubs from becoming places where this type of American-style sport is practised.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I understand.

I would also like to go back to the question asked by my colleague, Mr. MacGregor, about an amendment aimed at strengthening the assault-style gun ban. That is your first request amongst the amendments that you are seeking.

In answer to my colleague, yes, we are working on such an amendment. It is also a priority for me, personally, as well as for our government.

Could you provide more details to the committee on the importance of such a measure?

[Nathalie Provost]

After what happened at the Polytechnique in 1989, the first thing we did was to ask for a ban on this type of weapon in Canada. We were students at the time. There are photographs of me, Heidi and other classmates. We were between 22 and 24 years old.

We made the request to the government of Canada and we were not the only ones. At that time, there was no Internet, and there weren't any e‑petitions. We had a very long petition that was signed by Canadians from all regions. The request didn't just come from Quebec or Montreal: it was a Canada-wide request.

That was when the Canadian Coalition for Gun Control was set up, which led to the enactment, in 1995, of The Firearms Act. However, because a firearms registry was seen as a useful tool at the time, the government didn't follow through with a blanket ban on assault-style firearms.

The market has changed and evolved. Today, we are seeing a firearms epidemic, actually it's more of a pandemic, because all the countries of the world are suffering from this epidemic. Firearms have become ordinary toys that people want to get. If you want our support for this bill, you absolutely have to bring in a robust amendment that would completely ban assault-style firearms and set out a mandatory buyback program for all these firearms.

In our opinion, these measures are glaringly obvious and more than necessary. The parents of the victims of the massacre at the Polytechnique are dying now. They fought for 33 years for such a ban, and they might not see their efforts succeed. We have to act now. The more time passes, the harder it will be for the government to enact strong legislation at a reasonable cost. We need a bill that clearly defines what an assault-style firearm is and completely bans this type of firearm, and we have to do so in 2022. Those are the conditions of our support for the government's bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Bendayan.

I should have mentioned earlier that we will have to cut this round short. We'll have to end it after Mr. MacGregor.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Provost, you can count on the Bloc Québécois to propose such an amendment if ever the government does not do so.

When you testified during our study on firearms and street gangs, you said that all magazines should only contain five bullets and that the industry was perfectly capable of doing this.

The government promised regulations that would ban magazines that could be converted to their full illegal capacity.

Since we had to wait four years the last time before regulations were put into place, do you have any hope that this will happen quickly, or do you think that we should amend Bill C‑21 to tackle the problem, rather than wait for regulations?

[Heidi Rathjen]

That is actually what we are recommending. Ideally, we would like to see such a ban in the legislation. It would be legitimate and it would be more efficient, because it would be harder to make any changes afterwards.

The government has stated that it would like to take the regulatory route. Currently, there are regulations that ban different types of magazines. In the past, the federal government, under a different party, decided to exempt from the act any magazine that had not been expressly designed for the firearm that it would be used for, which was an interpretation that went against the spirit of the law. Actually, a member of Kim Campbell's team was quoted afterwards in the media saying that this exemption was ridiculous and absurd.

It would be easier for the next government to change the regulations rather than the act.

In answer to your question, we would indeed like to see a change brought to the act, if it is possible.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Finally, I know that when people get involved in politics or choose to fight for something publicly, they become the target of negative comments which are sometimes degrading or even threatening.

I know that you have been especially targeted because of your activism, which is most unfortunate. Sometimes, such a reaction can stem from a lack of education. People only read the first few lines and become haters straight away...

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I would have so much liked to ask my question. Oh well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We go now to Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I remember—I think it was in your opening comments or in response to one of my colleagues' questions—you talked about clause 34. I think you referenced the fact that some chief firearms officers, in certain provinces, have shown a willingness to be confrontational with the federal government, even though both the Criminal Code and Firearms Act are entirely federal in jurisdiction.

I think one of your recommendations.... This goes specifically to the “yellow flag” law. You want the words changed from “may” to “shall” suspend use. I guess you want to take away any ability of the CFO to have some leeway in that.

Can you expand on that a bit?

[Heidi Rathjen]

After 33 years of experience, we know legislation needs to be rock-solid, and that any grey zone or discretion can be exploited, and often is, depending on the values of the government in place, whether it's federal or provincial. It's like we see now in some of the western provinces. They have appointed chief firearms officers because of their involvement with and ownership of guns. It's explicitly to protect gun owners' rights.

The more there are words like “may” or “could”, the more chance there is that these authorities will not err on the side of public safety. If a chief firearms officer has reasonable grounds to suspect an individual is no longer eligible to hold a licence, why would the possibility of allowing that individual to keep their licence exist? If they aren't eligible, the licence should be revoked. It's that simple.

Tightening up some of the language—and this is one good example—would go a long way to ensuring that public safety is a priority.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

I'll end by thanking you for your appearance today. I think there will be a willingness to tighten up language in some of these sections, for sure.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

I thank all the witnesses for joining us today. Their interventions are most helpful and important.

With that, we will suspend and bring in the next panel.

Thank you, all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting back to order.

For the panel in this second hour, by video conference we have the Airsoft Association of British Columbia and Scott Hackenbruch, director. With us in person we have Matt Wasilewicz, owner and president of Canadian Airsoft Imports.

I'll invite each group to make a statement of up to five minutes.

We will start with Mr. Hackenbruch for five minutes, please.

[Scott Hackenbruch, Director, Airsoft Association of British Columbia]

Thank you for having me here to talk about Bill C-21 and its impact on airsoft.

My name is Scott Hackenbruch and I am the director of the Airsoft Association of British Columbia. I have played airsoft for over 15 years. I have organized and run some of the largest games in western Canada.

The Airsoft Association of B.C. was founded to represent the players of our sport, educate the public and work with government, law enforcement and various other stakeholders to ensure that we can safely practice our sport and help it grow.

We've seen countless stories of people whose lives have been changed for the better by the sport. In addition to being a player, business owner and organizer, I am also a new father, and I hope to one day be able to introduce my son to the sport that means so much to me, in a safe manner and also at the appropriate time.

Some of the most heartwarming and gratifying stories are when parents approach me to tell me about how transformative airsoft has been in their children's lives. Learning how to communicate clearly and effectively, gaining sportsmanship, building long and lasting friendships, and cementing bonds with their parents are just a few of the stories I've been fortunate enough to be a part of.

We have heard testimony in this committee that has spoken of the public safety concerns that our law enforcement and officers potentially face due to the misuse of airsoft devices. We want to solve these problems with a constructive and collaborative approach.

We've also heard from our colleagues in the ASIC and the FSAQ about the potential of Bill C-21 to effectively end airsoft in Canada. Fear, uncertainty and doubt permeate our community. Overnight, families and businesses with life savings invested in the industry could see their livelihoods destroyed and would be left with vast amounts of merchandise they can no longer sell, export or return to the manufacturers, should the bill in its current form pass. This would devastate many in an already difficult economy.

Prohibiting the importation, sale or transfer of an airsoft device that is intended to exactly resemble or resemble with near precision a firearm will remove the vast majority of devices available to the Canadian market. Due to the relative size of our consumer market, it would be unlikely that manufacturers would design and build custom airsoft devices for our retailers and distributors.

The broad definition would also leave it open to interpretation that anything resembling a barrel with a grip and a trigger could be considered a firearm, regardless of its being intended to resemble a commercially available firearm or not. One thing is apparent: This is a complex and nuanced issue.

Airsoft is a competitive team sport that relies heavily on integrity and character. We value rules. We value safety. For the last two decades, airsoft has been a self-regulated sport in which the community has determined the equipment and regulations needed to compete in a safe and responsible manner. We recognize the need to work with the greater community of Canada to ensure that we can safely enjoy our sport and address the needs of Canadians.

We propose one or more of the following solutions to address those needs in the short term. These include adding an 18-plus minimum age to the purchase of an airsoft device; mandatory transportation in an opaque and solid container; warning labels on the packaging of airsoft devices informing the end user of the potential consequences of misuse; orange tips required for the sale and transport of airsoft devices; and the dissemination of educational materials through retailers, local fields and provincial associations.

A more comprehensive solution may be the implementation of a national organization or a group of provincial organizations. To purchase an airsoft device in Canada, it would be compulsory to be a member of one of these organizations. This would remove the burden of cost for any regulatory framework from the federal government, while addressing concerns for the public safety of Canadians.

As representatives of our community of players, we are standing before our duly elected representatives asking you to consider the joy, friendship and growth this sport has brought to every one of us. It has built lifelong friendships, sparked entrepreneurial spirit and led us to push our boundaries. These are foundational qualities that improve and enrich our community every day. We are ready to work together with you on finding a solution that will keep us all safe.

I thank the committee for the time and welcome any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Hackenbruch.

We will go now to Mr. Wasilewicz for his statement.

Please go ahead for five minutes.

[Matt Wasilewicz, Owner and President, Canadian Airsoft Imports]

Hello. First, I would like to say thank you to the members of the committee for inviting me here today to speak on behalf of my industry.

I am here specifically more to speak on airsoft, but I would like to make a point that has not been touched upon too much, which is that this bill affects not only the entire airsoft industry, but traditional BB and pellet guns as well, which are also very popular and common in Canada. However, I am here to speak more specifically on the airsoft industry itself.

I will give you a quick background of my experience in the industry. I have been involved in both the paintball and airsoft industries now for the past 25 years. Since 2009, I have owned a paintball and airsoft playing facility, as well as a retail location, and since 2012 I have owned Canadian Airsoft Imports. We are one of Canada's largest importers and distributors of airsoft products, supplying approximately 150 retail locations and playing fields from coast to coast in Canada.

I was going to give you a quick background on airsoft, but I think at this point most of you are pretty aware of what airsoft is. It's a team sport played very similarly to paintball as a game. The majority of airsoft is played on designated airsoft playing fields, either indoor or outdoor, both in cities and in rural areas.

As an industry, we definitely understand there are public safety concerns that must be addressed, and I would like to stress that in consultation with other retailers and importers in this industry, we are very committed to working with the government to find solutions that will both address these issues and, at the same time, allow our industry to continue to prosper for everyone.

At this point I'll just go over some of the proposals we have come up with. In my brief I have listed these proposals, but I'll go over them here now. I have divided them into two categories. One would be more basic proposals that could be implemented without extra administration or extra co-operation with a government entity, and ones that require extra administration or co-operation with a government entity, which would obviously need a bit more consideration to implement.

These basic proposals have been touched upon numerous times now, but I'll just list them again.

Our industry 100% supports making it clear and concise that the purchase of any airgun in Canada should be only by individuals who are over the age of 18.

It should also be clear and concise that the transportation of airguns should be done in a way that conceals them from public view, in either a gun case or a concealed container, similar to what you would already do with a real firearm.

Another change that we are able to make would be the addition of brightly coloured orange tips on the ends of the guns. This helps in aiding identification from a quick glance at a distance.

Another proposal that our industry very strongly supports is the standardization of a dos and don'ts waiver, as I would like to put it, that is mandatory to be signed with the buyer at the point of sale. This has a twofold benefit. One would be education to new players and new users who are getting into the sport, as I believe the best course of action to stop any honest mistakes with airsoft or airguns in general is through education and making sure people who purchase these items know what is required of them for owning them, such as safe transportation, storage and that sort of thing.

The other thing about having a waiver like this at the point of sale, so someone has to sign and obviously show ID at the same time, is that it also, I believe, would act as an effective deterrent to a lot of people who would perhaps have ill intent when using an airgun, so I believe this could also be a deterrent as well for that type of situation.

Another proposal I have, and this comes more from my background in the paintball industry, would be that airguns should be sold in the packaging with what's called a barrel bag.

If any of you have ever played paintball or seen it, the barrel bag is a device that goes over the end of the barrel. It is attached to the end of the gun. It's usually brightly coloured, at least in the paintball industry, and a lot of airsoft fields do this now as standard practice to basically show everyone that the gun is safe and cannot shoot. It's usually in staging areas, so you know it's safe and accidents can't happen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Are you able to wrap up quickly?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

I'm sorry.

As for my advanced proposals, this one has been brought up to me before a couple of times in my conversations with the public safety office. It would be adopting a more comprehensive model that includes all of the above, such as the model that's used in the U.K. It's a two-tier system.

Another proposal is access to a weapons ban list. I don't know if a mechanism like this already exists, but I'm sure retailers would like to have something like that at their disposal as well. That could also be useful.

That will conclude my opening statement for now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We will now start our rounds of questions with Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Lloyd, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I can't say I'm an expert on airsoft myself, although I have paintballed a few times.

It seems to me that law enforcement had a few concerns. Their one concern was that there have been cases when a police officer has mistaken an airsoft gun or a replica gun for a real gun, and then a tragic thing happened.

Is this something that is common, or is this an extremely rare event?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

I don't think it's as common as maybe we would think, but I think law enforcement could probably better answer that question. They would have the statistics on how often that happens.

I believe that in order to avoid situations like that, having distinct markings such as brightly coloured tips or going a step further with the two-tier system the U.K. uses is probably a more effective approach to reduce that type of situation. Education to the consumer at point of sale is also going to be very effective, because—