Public Safety Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here with us today. What a pleasure it is to see you.

We have already heard the Fédération sportive d'airsoft du Québec as well as the Canadian Airsoft Association. We quickly understood that your industry was not consulted before the bill was tabled. I also gather that you have the impression that the airsoft industry has been unfairly targeted by the bill.

Since the bill seems to effectively ban airsoft markers and replica firearms, airsoft enthusiasts have been quick to submit proposals as a compromise. The associations that we have heard seemed to be open to finding other solutions, such as more regulations so that these sports can still be practised and not be subject to an out-and-out ban. I think that is what you are also proposing.

I know that this has already been said, but I am repeating it because I think it is extremely useful to go and check what is being done elsewhere. Obviously, as elected officials, we are not specialists in all subjects. We do learn a lot, however. Fortunately, we are helped by parliamentary assistants as well as the Library of Parliament analysts that provide us with interesting information.

We looked at what New Zealand is doing, and you spoke of this. As you know, ordinary air guns are not considered to be firearms. Under section 21 of the Arms Act, to own such a weapon, you have to be at least 18 years old, or have a firearm licence if you are between the ages of 16 and 18.

I gather you would agree with this sort of regulatory age limit in Canada. Is that correct?

[Scott Hackenbruch]

Yes. That is one of the proposals we are making, 18 years plus, in Canada.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I also understand that the industry is heavily regulated in the United Kingdom, too.

I find it interesting that we use an orange tip to distinguish an airsoft gun from a real gun. In the United Kingdom, to better differentiate between the two types of guns, they sell two tone airsoft guns, whereby 51% of the surface is covered in blue, green or orange. This makes the gun much less realistic and clearly shows that it is not a real gun.

If the government were to impose regulations that would require distributors to sell guns that have been painted in different colours, would you be okay with that?

[Scott Hackenbruch]

In the two-tiered system in the U.K., if you are not a member of the UKAPA organization, you have to purchase what you're specifying by the coloured variant, as it were. Membership would allow you to purchase the sorts of devices that we presently have in Canada, so there is a restriction there. We are open to discussion of the sort of two-tiered system that allows for that methodology.

[Matt Wasilewicz]

In consultation with the various retailers I deal with on a daily basis, most are definitely supportive of trying to adapt to a two-tier system as they do in the U.K. I believe it is probably the most effective and comprehensive solution to address all the issues.

If that were to be the direction, further consideration would probably have to be given to how that would be implemented to other airguns that are affected by this industry. Airsoft is primarily sold through very specialized stores that are able to accommodate this sort of solution, which we definitely can and would do. However, larger, big-box retailers that sell traditional BB or pellet guns might have significant challenges adapting to a solution like that.

You would have to either do something extra for them or make some sort of distinction between airsoft and traditional BB and pellet guns. I don't know what that would be, but further thought would have to be put into that.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

We received lots of emails and suggestions about storage and the use of certain cases or bags for transportation. Some businesses have told us that the best way to follow the suggestions of other airsoft stakeholders, such as the ASIC, would be to ban individuals from importing airsoft markers. Here in Canada, that would mean that airsoft equipment could only be sold by Canadian distributors.

What do you think of that?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

[Scott Hackenbruch]

I'm not sure I quite understand what's being asked.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I will try to be clearer.

We are seeking to regulate airsoft equipment imports. If Canadians could only buy this type of equipment from Canadian distributors, and nowhere else, would you be okay with that?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

I think I understand the point you're trying to make. If the product can be imported only by actual importers, such as my business or retailers, that puts an added level of control on how it makes it to the end-user, rather than end-users being able to import the products themselves.

Is that your question? Yes. Okay.

Yes, I definitely think that could be effective, because right now end-users can import by themselves. There's nothing special required in order to do so. Of course, if you limit it to businesses that are importing the product, that controls the supply chain a bit more and makes sure that end-users have to purchase their product through Canadian retailers that will use these safe practices at sale to ensure that they are educated and so forth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Madam.

Mr. MacGregor, if you please.

You have six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm glad you brought up the issue of pellet guns. I grew up with a pellet gun, and I know a lot of my friends have pellet guns. A lot of them look like real rifles from a distance. Of course, functionally, you can see the difference right away.

You said that the unintended consequences of how Bill C-21 is currently written could potentially also impact the owners of pellet guns and their ability to sell or transfer what they have lawfully purchased.

Can you expand a bit on that as well?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

Yes, that would be correct. The way it's written is basically that anything that looks like a gun and shoots a projectile becomes prohibited, so, absolutely, that affects more traditional pellet guns or your Red Ryder BB gun. That kind of thing is affected, absolutely, so we have to make sure we don't forget about that. Even though we're talking specifically about airsoft, it's still important to consider.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You mentioned that about 90% of airsoft users use a device with an electric motor in it. Is that correct? Did I quote you correctly there?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

Yes, that is pretty accurate for any rifle. I would say approximately 90% of the market is electrically powered.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Roughly 10% are the gas-powered options for rifles—

[Matt Wasilewicz]

That's correct.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I've seen the internal workings of the electric ones. Certainly converting that to a fully functioning firearm would be pretty much impossible, but you're saying that it's most likely the gas-powered ones that could be converted, with the technical know-how to convert, to something that could maybe fire a few rounds of real bullets.

[Matt Wasilewicz]

Yes, and that is rare, but there are certain models.... A lot of them come from Japan, where they don't really have real firearms, so they'll make things almost exact, but the RCMP does a good job at identifying these and signing FRT numbers if they determine there is a risk or if they don't pose a risk. Like I said, these are primarily gas models. As far as I'm aware, no electric rifle has ever been determined by the RCMP to pose a risk for convertibility. They are quite significantly different, despite aesthetic appearances.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I think the struggle our committee is having with Bill C-21 is that the way it's written does not give us a lot of wiggle room on how to amend it to what the industry would like to see. It's not easy for us to insert requirements for age, requirements for membership of a national organization or requirements to sign a waiver, because Bill C-21 basically amends the Criminal Code, changes the definition of what a replica firearm is and deems certain firearms to be prohibitive devices.

You are right in the concerns you have for your industry, because after Bill C-21, if it is passed as written and you were the owner of one of these, suddenly, if you were to transfer it to another person, you could be charged with weapons trafficking. If you were to have a bunch of them, the police may say that you are possessing a bunch of them because you are going to traffic them, so I can understand the very real concerns that people have.

I'm just going to make a comment here. One of the options before our committee is that we may just have to send the government back to the drawing board, because I don't think enough consultation was done. We have such a narrow laneway open to us to try to incorporate what the industry is asking for, and I agree. I think a lot of the concerns are very reasonable.

Airsoft in Canada provided me with a briefing. They've taken some time to specify their understanding of the bill and some of the options they would like to see.

You have a business. You have quite a large stock of airsoft. Can you talk a little about how difficult it would be, given your stock of airsoft guns and the imports you get, to make the changes to require that a certain percentage of the barrel be coloured? Could you rank them by how difficult it would be to make the major manufacturers comply with what you're proposing?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

If we are implementing a measure such as an orange tip, that is relatively easy to do. All manufacturers are already set up to do this, because that is a requirement in the United States, and they are quite a large market for airsoft, along with Europe. Even if you had to retroactively go back and make current inventory comply by having an orange tip, that is pretty easy to do. I don't really see that as being a very large burden. It would just be a matter of ordering in the tips, swapping out what you have for your current inventory, and then you would be in compliance.

Adopting more of a two-tier model like they use in the U.K. would allow us to continue using current inventory and then also add new products that are brightly coloured for that lower tier of people who aren't engaged in airsoft.

The other measures we have proposed don't really have anything much to do with the physical inventory itself, unless maybe we decide to put on an extra warning. A lot of brands already have warning labels in the manuals and on the boxes, but that's not standardized among manufacturers, so that's also easy to do. If we had a standard warning label, we could put it on the box and put it in the manuals, and that's pretty easy to accomplish.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that.

That about takes my time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We'll start our second round of questions. This will be a shortened round again.

We will start with Mr. Motz, please, for five minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Is the sport of airsoft inherently dangerous at all?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

I would say no. In all the years I've owned a playing facility, I've seen a broken ankle and a broken wrist. That was from tripping over logs running around in the forest.

It is a non-contact sport. It's mandatory to wear a lot of protective equipment. It's definitely very safe. I would imagine you'd see more injuries in a contact sport like football, for example.