Public Safety Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

To Madame Michaud's point, Mr. Chiang is not a witness. These are certainly matters that can be raised and asked in debate, absolutely, and perhaps at some point Mr. Chiang would care to respond in debate as well.

There was another point of order. Is it the same point of order?

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Yes. I would just support Ms. Michaud's proposal that the proponent provide their opinion in evidence to answer that question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Once again, Mr. Chiang is not a witness before this committee. He's a member of it, and it's not an appropriate part of the process.

Mr. Calkins, carry on, if you please.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I take it that the department doesn't have any information to share with the committee on any consultations it's had with any of the hunting groups in Canada about whether or not the 10,000-joule limit is actually reasonable or not.

Mr. Smith, would any rifle chambered in a .460 Weatherby be prohibited as a result of the changes that are being proposed and in the order in council?

[Murray Smith]

The .460 Weatherby is a rifle made for a variety of purposes related to hunting. It is available in high-energy calibres. Those that exceed 10,000 joules are largely for hunting large African game. The rifle is also available in smaller calibres, which are typical of what would be used by hunters in Canada.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

My question for you is very technical, then, because if we're taking a look at, say, a Ruger.... Let's take a look at what I believe is the No. 1. Many of these firearms have interchangeable barrels. Would you agree with my assessment?

[Murray Smith]

Some firearms are modular. However, neither the Weatherby Mark V nor the Ruger No. 1 is modular. Changing the barrels on either of those firearms is a major gunsmithing undertaking.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Let's use an example of a gun that does have a modular capacity that is currently prohibited. What would happen if somebody had one of those hunting firearms? They had a barrel that was for a .460, but they also had a .30-06 for it. How would the law interpret that?

[Murray Smith]

Our position or our interpretation of it is that in order for a firearm to be affected by the 10,000-joule provision, the firearm has to actually be chambered for that particular calibre.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

But you're not banning the barrel; you're banning the entire firearm, Mr. Smith. Explain to me how the law works.

I have a similar question for you when it comes back to the G-4 amendment. I'm simply talking about the barrel and not the rest of the firearm. If the barrel is changeable from a .30-06 to a .460 Weatherby....

[Murray Smith]

The barrels for rifles in general are not regulated. Possession of a barrel chamber for any calibre, be it one over 10,000 joules or not, is not regulated. The barrels are not a regulated commodity for rifles.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Yet the barrel is the one that's responsible for the calibre that it can shoot. Is that correct?

[Murray Smith]

It's one of the characteristics responsible, but also the bolt itself has to be compatible with the calibre. The bolt face can change from one calibre to another.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I would assume that a rifle manufacturer wouldn't manufacture barrels for which the bolt was incompatible. That would make no sense. Would you agree?

[Murray Smith]

I agree in part and I understand your point, but the point I'm making is that if you change, say, a Weatherby Mark V rifle from a smaller calibre, say a .338 Weatherby, to be chambered for a .460 Weatherby, which is over 10,000 joules, it's necessary to change the barrel and the bolt.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

That's in that particular example.

[Murray Smith]

It's in tn that particular firearm—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

But there are other firearms with barrels that you could change to be at over the 10,000 joules, are there not?

[Murray Smith]

It depends, again, on the exact circumstances, because there are—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Okay. Hypothetically, what does the law do to an owner of a gun—and it doesn't matter the make or model—who has the ability to change the barrel to a calibre that can exceed 10,000 joules and to a barrel that doesn't exceed 10,000 joules? What happens to that individual's firearm?

[Murray Smith]

In my experience, the firearm would be prohibited only if the rifle is actually chambered for the high-energy calibre.

A parallel to that exists in law today. There's a provision under the restricted firearms definition for firearms that become restricted if they have a barrel length under 470 millimetres, plus other technical considerations. The firearm is considered restricted only if it has the short barrel and not if it doesn't.

That's an exact parallel to the situation you're describing. The way the courts have dealt with that is to consider what the firearm actually has mounted in order to assess its classification, so I don't think there's anything in particular for an owner of the type you described who happens to have a spare barrel in a calibre that's over 10,000 joules.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

What are you going to do when Weatherby loads their .460 Weatherby to produce 9,999 joules?

[Murray Smith]

The way the definition is framed in section 95 speaks to “capable” rather than actual, so downsizing the load would not change things. The firearm is still capable of receiving a standard .460 Weatherby and therefore would continue to be prohibited.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Is every semi-automatic rifle that's capable of accepting a legal magazine capable of accepting an illegal magazine if it's manufactured for that rifle?