Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Rob Daly]

They would have been added based on the criteria that was used from May 1, so they would have all been semi-auto, sustained rapid fire, military tactical design capable of receiving a large-capacity magazine. They would also have been modern design, meaning post-World War II, and there would have been a prevalence or a market volume test in excess of 1,000 known firearms within the market at the time.

They would have met all three of those criteria in order to be added to the list of the 1,900 makes and models.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Can you recap the three criteria?

[Rob Daly]

The criteria, again, are semi-auto, sustained rapid fire, military tactical design capable of receiving a large-capacity magazine, modern design in the sense of post-World War II and prevalence in the market in excess of 1,000 known firearms.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

In sum, these would be guns that most reasonable people should not really be using for common use, I would imagine.

[Rob Daly]

I can just say that those are the guns that met all of those criteria.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Okay.

Going back to the table for a second, whether it's Mr. Smith or Mr. Daly, is the table publicly accessible?

[Murray Smith]

It's accessible, certainly, to all police and government agencies by a direct connection on the Internet. It's also available to the public via a PDF document that is posted, I believe, every two weeks these days. It's not the easiest document to access, and the RCMP is presently working on an improved system to deliver to the public.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Let me tell you why I asked this question.

I'm going to speak for everybody here. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think we have all received emails, text messages and phone calls from people asking a specific question: Is my gun, which I have had for however many years, prohibited or not? Many of these, upon our research, were captured in previous iterations.

How do people look these up to make sure that they don't have to reach out to their MPs or be upset and worry? How can they get confirmation that they are okay or not?

[Murray Smith]

The firearms reference table is in use today. Thus, it must represent the law as it exists today. There is no future or forward-looking aspect to the firearms reference table, because it is and must be based on the current legislation.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Mr. Smith, my question is not so much forward-looking. We've been getting requests about guns that are on past lists, but there's no way for people to know.

There are two things. There is a need to assuage people of concerns that their gun—past, present or future—is not going to be affected. I think that is one element. There's a second element of people not being aware of whether or not something was already covered previously.

The concern is how we make sure that we aren't conflating everything that has happened in this bill and the amendment as being all net new.

What I'm trying to understand...for a lot of us, the very detailed lists that were provided in the amendment can be confusing. We see something and we think it's net new when, in fact, it's been on a list for quite some time, or we see something and we don't see the word except at the top of the chapeau.

How do we give people the means—and I asked for the list in the last meeting—with which to sift through this and understand where they sit on the continuum?

[Murray Smith]

Frankly, that's something that's beyond my control.

My understanding is that the lists are now public. They've been released by the chair, I believe. People can peruse the lists themselves. They are relatively lengthy.

What I can say is that in my interactions with members of the public on the classification of firearms, they generally find favour with the concept of firearms being listed explicitly in lists, because they can look them up and see them in black and white, as opposed to having to interpret a statute. That isn't to say that everyone is in favour of that. That's generally what I've heard.

I guess the lists that are here are rather lengthy. It probably requires a bit more effort than in the past to go through them.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

With that in mind, Ms. Clarke, do we have the list that I asked for?

[Paula Clarke, Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

It has been prepared. It is being vetted through our approval process to be able to forward it to the committee.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

I know it's a lot of work, so thank you for doing that.

When do you think we will have the benefit of that list?

[Paula Clarke]

I am hoping it will be today.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Excellent. That will, hopefully, go a long way.

Is there any intention, desire or plan to create a searchable database for Canadians?

[Phaedra Glushek, Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

In terms of the list, the 480 new makes and models—not the 1,900 that were banned in 2020 and the 800 that were banned in the nineties—would presumably be added and published, if passed, with the regulations as they are now in the consolidated Martin's Criminal Code, or online on the Justice website.

With respect to the definition, there is no list that would support the definition in proposed paragraph (g). If it were to pass, there would be no list at this point. The legislation doesn't provide for a list to set out those firearms.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I understand.

Going back to what you said, there are 2,700 firearms that were on the 1990s list and the 2020 list.

[Phaedra Glushek]

That's the makes and models.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

It's the makes and models.

[Phaedra Glushek]

That's the makes and models. It's not firearms; it's the make and models.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Excuse me. It's the make and models.

The new list has 480 makes and models.

[Phaedra Glushek]

It's the makes and models. That's correct.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Let me do my math quickly. It's not 3,180 new makes and models that are being added to the list.

Is that correct?

[Phaedra Glushek]

That's correct. It's only 480 approximately, and that includes the variants.