Public Safety Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[The Clerk]

There is no request made for tomorrow, so the only options for sitting this week would be for another committee to cancel its own meeting and having your whips decide to take that slot. The other request that was made was for an extension—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

We can have it Friday morning at the Liberal convention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You're trying to intrude on my convention time, I see.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I wouldn't do that, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I understand.

Are there any further interventions?

Is it the will of the committee to adopt this report?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I believe we have consensus. Thanks, all of you.

That being said, we shall carry on with our further business.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, June 23, 2022, the committee resumes consideration of Bill C-21, an act to amend certain acts and to make certain consequential amendments related to firearms. The committee resumes clause-by-clause consideration.

I welcome, once again, after a long absence, our officials. It's good to see you. We'll do our best to get this done.

At the point when we last engaged in clause-by-clause, we were embroiled in a vigorous debate on amendment G-4, which has been withdrawn. That effectively adjourns that particular debate.

We will continue.

I'm sorry. I forgot to introduce our officials.

From the Department of Justice, we have Marianne Breese, counsel, criminal law policy section; Paula Clarke, counsel, criminal law policy section; and Phaedra Glushek, counsel, criminal law policy section. From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Rachel Mainville-Dale, acting director general, firearms policy. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Rob Daly, director, strategic policy, and Kellie Paquette, director general, both from the Canadian firearms program.

Once again, thank you for joining us today. Your participation is much appreciated.

We will recommence as close as I can figure out to where we are.

You all should have received a new package of amendments. We start at this point with G-3. I believe that is standing in the name of Ms. Damoff.

Please go ahead.

(On clause 1)

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I would like to move G-3.1, which deals with ghost guns or 3-D printed guns, as they're also known.

Essentially, when G-4 was withdrawn, an important part of that amendment was a change in paragraph (i) that would incorporate firearm parts into the legislation. That is important because ghost guns, or 3-D printed guns, rely on actual firearm parts in order to be usable.

All members can agree that this growing issue needs to be addressed urgently. It was actually part of our study on guns and gangs, which we were able to produce a unanimous report on. Many of us went to the RCMP gun vault, and we were able to see how quick and easy it is for criminals to 3-D print the receiver portion of a firearm illegally.

I met with police services across the country who told me how worried they are about ghost guns infiltrating our communities. Investigators, like Michael Rowe of the Vancouver police service, whom colleagues will remember, appeared at our committee during our study on guns and gangs. My colleague Mr. Noormohamed and I met him in Vancouver. He emphasized the need to create legislative solutions to address this gap so that police would have the tools they need to apprehend those who are creating ghost guns.

I'm just going to quote some of Inspector Rowe's testimony from when he appeared at committee. He said:

For example, one of the trends we're seeing out here in Vancouver right now is the use of privately made firearms or “ghost guns”. During the gang conflict, we're seeing more ghost guns, specifically in the hands of people who are involved in active murder conspiracies or people who are believed to be working as hired contract killers. Ghost guns can be 3-D printed or modified from what's called a Polymer80 handgun....

Modern 3-D printing materials can produce a durable firearm capable of shooting hundreds of rounds without a failure. For example, one of my teams recently completed an investigation in which we executed search warrants on a residential home. Inside this home, we located a sophisticated firearms manufacturing operation capable of producing 3-D printed firearms. They had firearm suppressors and they were completing airsoft conversions—converting airsoft pistols into fully functioning firearms.

This amendment that I put forward, colleagues, is in direct response to Inspector Rowe's ask, where he said:

I'd respectfully like to submit that a potential solution would be to bring in legislative remedies to regulate the possession, sale and importation of firearms parts such as barrels, slides and trigger assemblies. This type of legislation would give us, the police, the necessary tools to be able to seize these items, get active enforcement action and more effectively target the manufacturing of privately made firearms.

Police services across the country are sounding the alarm on this problem, and the amendments we're introducing to address ghost guns are another reason Bill C-21 is an essential piece of legislation that would increase public safety.

There are also many amendments coming forward that will add the words “firearm part” to legislation, and this would help address the ever-growing problem of ghost guns in our country.

In order to do all of the other pieces that we need to do with firearm parts, we first need to pass G-3.1. Therefore, I'm asking for everyone's support on an issue that is a growing concern across the country. It will actually put us ahead of gangs and organized crime, and it will truly make a difference for police services right across the country.

I'm hoping that colleagues will support this.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We have Mr. Julian, followed by Mr. Motz.

Please go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I am just going to speak briefly, because I think this is fundamentally important to pass. The bill, particularly the provisions related to ghost guns and cracking down on criminals, is something we need to move forward on.

Ms. Dancho referenced the delay. She's quite right. There has been a delay on the government side for the last few months. That being said, now that we're moving forward again, I believe we need to move forward in an effective way. Here's why: We know to what extent ghost guns are appearing right across this country. In the United States, the Biden administration has cracked down on ghost guns. United States law enforcement has seized over 20,000 illegally manufactured, untraceable ghost guns in the past year.

As you'll recall, we had the Department of Justice before us. Up until that last week, when we asked them to start compiling the figures, they actually didn't have figures that they could share with us. Presumably, the increase in Canada has been as dramatic as it has been in the United States. Certainly, anecdotally in our region of the Lower Mainland of British Columbia, we're seeing a remarkable, tragic increase in the number of ghost guns. Right across the country, in certain jurisdictions it's up to 10 times, even 40 times, the number of seized ghost guns—untraceable weapons.

The reality of cracking down on criminals means adopting this amendment. There are many amendments to come to deal with ghost guns. I think we're all aware, all four parties around the table, of the risk that comes from not taking action to close the loopholes that exist currently in the law on ghost guns. Certainly law enforcement has signalled this to us as well.

I'm hoping that we would rapidly pass this amendment. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

It will be Mr. Motz, followed by Madame Michaud.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I have a number of questions in regard to this.

I'm curious. We are targeting, so to speak, ghost guns in this particular amendment, but we don't mention them. I think it would be helpful if we mentioned what we're talking about, if we actually mentioned ghost guns. It certainly is an issue that has taken off across the country, and it has to be addressed. We agree.

There is one other thing I would like to ask the officials about. Currently—correct me if I'm wrong, please—there is nothing prohibiting a member of the public from ordering parts for a firearm from the U.S. and having them brought into Canada. Is that correct?

[Paula Clarke, Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

That's correct.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

If that's the case and if the printing of ghost guns requires some metal parts, which we know, would it not be a prudent addition to have here that anybody who brings firearm parts into the country requires a PAL or an RPAL in order to do so?

Would that not solve the problem? Help me understand what some of the nuances might be.

[Phaedra Glushek, Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

We can't speak to what other motions could or could not do, unless we are being given permission to speak to motions that are possibly going to be introduced later.

Do we have permission to do so from the chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

If the committee permits, I believe that Mr. Noormohamed wishes to respond to this. Is that okay?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Sure. I'm not done with my intervention, but yes, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Okay, go ahead.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I have proposed an amendment in this regard. I'm prepared to waive privilege on that specific one. In fact, I'm happy to waive privilege on all my ghost guns amendments, because I do think this will answer—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

All your ghost guns personally, or—

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Mine personally, as well as others.

I think it would be important. If we're having a fruitful conversation about ghost guns, I think it's important to know that the importation of parts is something we are seized with in these amendments as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

Mr. Motz, carry on, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

I appreciate that, Taleeb.

Go ahead, Ms. Glushek.

[Phaedra Glushek]

With respect to other ghost gun amendments that might be moved, the government is adding “firearm part” to various provisions in the Criminal Code such as importation, so trafficking or smuggling offences. They will be added to that.

There is no requirement currently in the law that someone has to have an RPAL or a PAL. I can turn to my colleague from Public Safety, who can speak to a motion being moved in the future.

[Rachel Mainville-Dale, Acting Director General, Firearms Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you.

There is a motion that you will see with regard to requiring a PAL, a possession and acquisition licence, in order to import or purchase a firearm part as it will be defined in this motion.