Public Safety Committee on May 11th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Before you do, I should note that if CPC-23 is adopted, NDP-18 cannot be moved due to a line conflict.

Go ahead.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

We had a lot of testimony from a lot of shooting groups, so the original bill included an exemption for Olympic shooting. However, it became very clear to us that there is a very vibrant culture of responsible handgun sport shooters: cowboy action shooting, IPSC and Paralympians, among others. They were not being adequately covered by this legislation.

Understanding that sometimes prescribing things in legislation is not the best way to govern or legislate, we have proposed adding “a handgun shooting discipline” as wording to allow some flexibility in determining which handgun disciplines or sporting activities would be legitimately allowed for getting a restricted licence or a registration for a handgun. That's why we're moving forward with that.

Clearly, this is an important part of culture, particularly in western Canada, and I think it's important that we not sterilize something that has not.... Nobody has provided any evidence that these people conducting these activities are an increased threat to society. We should always err on the side of liberty unless there is evidence to prove otherwise.

Maybe there are other Conservatives who have something to say on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

They can put their hand up and get on the list.

At this moment, it's Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Certainly, it's one of the concerns that I've heard from a number of constituents. Quite often, it's a surprise. I received a phone call from a retired elementary school principal who had taken up a type of sport shooting with a handgun and was truly distraught. This is not an Olympic sport. It's something that he and his wife had taken up after retirement, and they found a great deal of joy in retirement in doing it.

To complement Mr. Lloyd's point, I think it's really unfortunate that there is such a narrow prescription here. It really misses many of those who have been engaged in handgun shooting more broadly. Not acknowledging that is putting at risk what was described as—and I would agree—a very vibrant subset of Canadian culture. That is no more evident than in western Canada. Whether that be rodeo and the culture associated with that or the indigenous sport shooters, it's not like they necessarily have IOC designations or prescriptions to how they do things.

To ensure there is an expansion to include the full creativity of what these individuals' experiences might be and to not limit what that should look like is, I think, common sense. I think it acknowledges that the understanding of a few here in the nation's capital prescribing across our country is not what is best for this space in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

I have Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Just briefly, Chair, this is one of the central pieces of Bill C-21. It's a policy difference that we have with the Conservative Party of Canada. It's something we are quite proud to be introducing.

We won't be supporting this. It's something that, as a policy, we are deciding to move forward on. We won't be supporting this amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Is there any further discussion?

You have one minute and 14 seconds, Mr. Kram.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think this seems like a very reasonable amendment, by the simple fact that the number of sports at the Olympics is always changing and tends to be expanding every four years. I remember a time in my life when curling was not yet an Olympic sport, and that raises the question: If we ban activities that are not yet Olympic sports, how are these activities and sports ever going to evolve into Olympic sports if people don't have the opportunity to participate in them?

I think it's very reasonable to broaden the scope of this particular clause. Let's allow people to train and to hone their skills. Then when these activities do become Olympic events, we'll have a leg up and some extra medals for Canada at Olympics time.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Is there any further discussion? I'll call the vote on amendment CPC-23.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'd like a recorded division.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We will have a recorded division.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 4)

That brings us to amendment NDP-18, in the name of Mr. MacGregor.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I would like to give a shout-out to Alistair MacGregor for his work on this committee, as of course you know about, in drafting important amendments. This is an important one as well, I would say.

As we get to the end of the amendments, I think the committee has worked really effectively together.

The reality is that this clause in the bill, as it is currently stated, shuts down the possibilities for people who are engaged in a rigorous and disciplined sport. What this amendment would do is include, besides the International Olympic Committee and the International Paralympic Committee, the International Practical Shooting Confederation and the Single Action Shooting Society.

The International Practical Shooting Confederation, as you're aware, has a number of members in Canada. It is part of an international sport shooting association. There are over 100 member countries, including many that have implemented handgun bans. Those include the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Australia. All of those countries, even after putting in place handgun bans, do allow members to train and compete in International Practical Shooting Confederation events.

I voted against the Conservative amendment because it opened the door widely. The current law is very restrictive. This represents, I think, an ability for some people who engage in sport shooting in a very rigorous discipline to, as part of the International Practical Shooting Confederation, still participate in that sport. Potentially, they are future Olympians as well.

This is a narrow focus. We've already passed amendments that allow for rigorous criteria. What this would do is allow members who are part of the International Practical Shooting Confederation to participate.

Alistair MacGregor, of course, has been a proponent for having a disciplined and very rigorous application of the law while allowing future Olympians, and those who train to very rigorous standards through the International Practical Shooting Confederation, to participate.

I would suggest that in the same way we found a way through with airsoft, we've ensured that the bill complies with the highest standards. With airsoft, we have allowed for the government to set a regulatory framework. We've just adopted another amendment that allows the government, as Ms. Damoff has explained, to apply regulations. I would suggest that this amendment makes some sense. It doesn't open the door widely in any way, but it does allow for those who are part of a rigorous, disciplined sport to continue to participate. As I mentioned, some of them may well be the Olympians of tomorrow.

When we look at other countries that have handgun bans in place, they have created an exemption for the International Practical Shooting Confederation. That seems to be a best practice we can follow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Go ahead, Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I mentioned before that this is a policy area where the New Democratic Party, the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party don't agree.

We had Ken Price from the Danforth Families for Safe Communities here. I remember Ken saying that it's a decision about how you want to move forward as a country.

The Liberal government has put forward a bill that will freeze handguns. We haven't banned them. We have put forward a freeze.

In fact, I will give credit to Ken Price. I remember very distinctly having a meeting with him. He said, “Look, I would love to have handguns banned tomorrow. We've had too much devastation on the Danforth, but maybe we freeze them and it will take them out of circulation eventually.”

The amendment put forward by the New Democratic Party would open this up. We've already allowed an exemption for a pathway for potential Olympians. However, even the International Practical Shooting Confederation said they expect their membership to grow considerably if there is an exemption that allowed it. The concern, of course, is that people who want to get around the handgun freeze will join IPSC.

Allowing an Olympic stream opens it up far too broadly. I know the New Democratic Party, and Mr. MacGregor in particular, felt quite strongly about this, but it's something we feel very strongly about too.

Ken Price said this when he was here at committee:

In terms of a control measure or being able to say what kind of gun should be used or not, or there being a risk that the number of those guns will grow because suddenly somebody is an IPSC elite shooter, we're just very skeptical that that could be managed. We think it undermines an objective we have.

Thank you to Mr. Julian for the work he has put in on this committee and on this bill, but this particular amendment is not one we're able to support.

I would also remind colleagues that handguns are not something that.... I think the vast majority of Canadians, when they're polled, support what we're doing in Bill C-21. I see that Mr. Kurek doesn't quite agree with me there, but that's the truth. When you ask Canadians whether they support a freeze on handguns, they do support it.

There is this idea that we need to expand what's in the bill after doing a review within government of the best path forward. We could have chosen a path that didn't allow this Olympic stream, but we decided that we would put this in there. There will be regulations developed on how that path moves forward.

It's very important that we move forward with this and that we decide what kind of country we want to be and how safe we want to be. While I know my Conservative colleagues don't agree with me on that, we feel that this is in the interest of public safety. I think we need to listen to what the Danforth families said and listen to what they went through with a gun in a gun-shop in Saskatchewan that was stolen. This isn't a gun that was smuggled across the border.

I'm sorry, but how much time do I have, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have 31 seconds.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

It was a gun that was in Canada.

I will leave it there for now, Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Mr. Blois, you have 15 seconds left.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Chair, if I had more time, I would give the perspective from rural Canada and where I sit on this particular issue. However, I probably have just a few more seconds.

Unfortunately, I'll have to save that for third reading in the House. Thank you.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I could give unanimous consent to let him have some more time to say what he has to say.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

There is a request for unanimous consent to give—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

It's five minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

—five minutes more time for another round of questions and answers.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Chair, the way it works is that it's another 20 minutes. As you see, I'm certainly willing to provide it.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I will be asking for five minutes for Mr. Blois.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Well, it works as Mr. Julian said.

Do we have unanimous consent to extend this for another 20 minutes?