Public Safety Committee on June 9th, 2023

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Okay.

I have to get something you mentioned in your opening remarks clarified. It might have been in one of your answers. Ms. Damoff was talking about the reservists. You said that reservists have the same powers of arrest as a regular RCMP. I was a little shocked to hear that. I know that in Ontario, auxiliary don't have peace officer status.

Do RCMP reservists actually have the same powers of arrest, or are they civilian?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

They're not auxiliary; they're reservists. They do. They have all the same powers as a regular member.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I didn't know that. Thank you for that clarification.

When they're on duty, is that the difference, or is it when they're not on duty?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

When they're on duty, absolutely.

There are some places in this country, like in Nunavut, where members are given an opportunity to take some time away, so the backfill is covered by reservists. There's a large number of reservists serving up in Nunavut.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I know you're not RCMP. This would be a good question if we get them back. I'd like to know what training they go through as reservists. Do you know?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Most of them are former regular members who have retired and are doing the job as reservists.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I didn't know that.

Conversely, in somewhere like Ontario, usually they are younger people who want to get on a service. I know you're saying that auxiliary is different, but I didn't realize....

That's good information to have. Thank you for that.

Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have six seconds.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I'm not that quick of a talker.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

We go now to Mr. Noormohamed, please.

You have five minutes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to begin where you left off on an answer to Mr. Motz.

You've heard this come up a couple of times in responses to Mr. Motz, Mr. Shipley and Mr. Julian. It's the idea that you've had to refer more cases than you would have liked to back to the RCMP.

What would best practice look like? In an ideal universe, where you said that from everything you've seen around the world, best practice would look like this, what would that look like?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I think the complaints that are...I don't want to say minor, because no complaint is minor, but complaints that really involve sitting down with the officer and looking at attitude issues need to be referred back.

When you're talking about people's liberties being infringed upon and when you're talking about individuals who are from vulnerable groups or groups that are at risk, I think it's really important for the commission to be able to take those on and use a proper approach. As we've seen in some cases, for an individual who has been seriously traumatized, there's nothing more traumatizing than having an RCMP member show up to their door to ask them questions for the investigation.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

In that vein, as a ballpark, what number or percentage of the existing cases do you refer back? You said that not a month goes by, but what percentage of those cases do you have to send back that you would rather keep?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

It's an interesting question. I would really be ballparking this, especially with the CBSA mandate. I'd say—

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Start with the RCMP today.

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I would say there are 15% to 20% of cases that we would like to look at ourselves.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Okay.

I don't want to belabour the funding point. For me, personally...I can't speak for my colleagues, but I think that everybody we've heard from so far says we need to make sure you're able to do this right. I think that's an important construct for us to go into this with.

Looking at the CBSA now, you obviously have this added potential responsibility of all of this coming on. We've heard some resistance or some perspectives from the union. They've expressed some concerns about these things. You have to bring an entire agency, its team and its staff along for the ride, on the journey. In my experience, one thing that doesn't work well is when you impose a solution on people. Success often comes when you can bring people along.

When you think about day zero, once this bill gets passed, and hopefully it will, with some of the changes that you're proposing, which are excellent, how do you foresee making sure the CBSA folks on the front line come along on this journey with you so the outcomes are successful?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

That's a place for public education. I see public education as not only applying to members of the public, but also to members of the organizations that we're overseeing. We do public education right now with the RCMP, as we can. I would suggest we're going to need to do exactly that with CBSA.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

When you open this conversation, one thing you're obviously going to deal with as part of that public education process is this idea that you are, in many cases, the voice of people who have had a very difficult time with these agencies. You are, by definition, the place where they currently come, from the RCMP perspective, and where they will hopefully be coming, from the CBSA perspective, to try to rectify these situations.

How do you see yourself as managing that kind of bridge? It's not like the agencies are coming to you and saying that they have a complaint. It's actually the public coming to you and saying that they have a complaint. You have to be that bridge.

How do you manage that going into this new agency that has never had this type of oversight before?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I think a key facet of that is stakeholder engagement. In fact, my team has already started meeting with some of the non-government organizations and civil society groups so we get an idea as to what their concerns are. That is a big part of it, doing that stakeholder engagement and, as I mentioned, public education and just making sure that we're heading in the right direction.

There's going to be a lot of training for the team. My organization is almost going to double in size as a result of this legislation so it's really critical that we get the word out there and identify individuals who really need our services.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Sounds good.

With the time that I have left, which I think is about a minute and a half—20 seconds—I want to very quickly talk about data. You've talked a lot about data. Everyone has been harping on this point.

In an ideal world, what are the data points you have that allow you to have the best perspective on how we can move forward with change?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

That's under study right now, in fact. We've received one report and we have a second report that's coming with recommendations in terms of what data we should be collecting. It's a partnership that we're doing with NSIRA. We're working with NSIRA on this so that we make sure we get it right.

It's something I've been looking at for a long time, but for me it's important that we get it right. We have Dr. Akwasu Owusu-Bempah who is doing some work for us, as is Scot Wortley.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

Over to you, Ms. Michaud. You have two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before you start the clock, I have a point of order to raise. Can you refresh us on how it usually works with the cameras? I noticed that some of the cameras that were off are now on. For quite a few minutes, however, it seemed as though there were only three Liberal members at the table and no NDP members. I'm not sure what it says in the motion on a hybrid Parliament. I realize that people may get up to go to the washroom or get something to eat, but when the cameras are off for minutes on end, it makes it seem as though committee members aren't at the meeting. It would be helpful if you could remind us what the usual practice or rule is when it comes to that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's a good policy to stay on screen. We will check into that and we will try to do better.

We'll start your time now.