Public Safety Committee on June 9th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm going to ask the committee if we can do a lightning round, with maybe two minutes per party.

Is that what you were going speak to, Mr. Julian?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Yes. Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm going to ask if it's okay to do a lightning round.

Mr. Shipley and Mr. Lloyd have to be in the House for members' statements. I've assured them that we will not conduct any substantive votes in their absence.

That being the case, we'll go ahead for two minutes with Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much.

I don't know if we're going to get to Mr. Julian's question. I would really like to hear Mr. Bellegarde's response to Mr. Julian's question.

Concern has been raised by the opposition on resourcing. I would like to hear your experience, Mr. Bellegarde. You're the first and only stand-alone first nations policing service in Saskatchewan. It would be interesting to hear how you guys handle your complaints in relation to Mr. Julian's question, and if you have any recommendations on how we might be able to fix what may be lacking in this regard with this legislation.

[Dan Bellegarde]

Yes, thank you, Chair.

Absolutely. I think resourcing has to be looked at from two perspectives. One perspective is from the operations of the commission itself. It has to be adequately resourced. I don't know exactly what level of complaints there will be.

It's also for the advocacy groups or for the individuals who are coming forward. Many of the people who would like to have public complaints put forward do not have the resources to do so. That issue of accessibility is critical to trust in the process and the accessibility to get the kind of support they require in order to put a public complaint forward.

It has not been easy for people to challenge such an overbearing institution like the RCMP in the lives of first nations people in the west, beginning with the North-West Mounted Police. It's going to take a lot of support.

That's why I brought up the special investigation unit of the FSIN, which is funded through the province, but it deals with municipal and RCMP complaints in the first stage. They then move on to the other institutions within the province.

We've never been very successful with the RCMP. It's cumbersome. It's difficult to get an answer and it just takes too long to go through it.

We absolutely need the kind of resources to make this commission work—$45 million, I think.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Motz and Mr. Bellegarde.

I apologize. I didn't mean to cut you off before you could answer Mr. Julian's question. I was too focused on the clock.

If you would like to offer a brief response to his question directly, I'll give you some time.

[Dan Bellegarde]

I think the question of $45 million would be good for the commission. As I mentioned, I think there has to be a support mechanism as well for the complainants in terms of advocacy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you very much.

We'll go now to Mr. Chiang.

Sir, you have two minutes, please.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today.

My question is for Mr. Bellegarde.

Through Bill C-20, the government will mandate that the PCRC engage in a public education campaign to ensure that Canadians are aware of the option for recourse should they wish to launch a complaint against the CBSA or the RCMP.

How important is it that this public education campaign be indigenous centred?

[Dan Bellegarde]

It's absolutely important. I mentioned that the commission would be wise to take into consideration the current organizational infrastructure across the country. In Saskatchewan, we have 10 tribal councils, one federation of sovereign indigenous nations and a number of other institutions that can really assist the commission in bringing this forward.

I think it has to come from our own people. It has to be our own advocates, our own individuals, who are working within the tribal council justice portfolios to be able to come together and share this with our own people. To have someone come in and try to educate us on the commission of inquiry such as this will not be as effective as having our own people doing it within our own structures.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

My next question is more regulatory than operational. Would you support additional training for members of the PCRC surrounding indigenous rights?

[Dan Bellegarde]

Absolutely. I think there are two areas that should be highlighted. One, of course, is cultural competency, how they talk about indigenous people. The Métis, the Cree, the Dene, the Nakota, Lakota and the Saulteaux are all different tribal groups, and they will have different needs, ways of working and ways of governing as well.

Yes, it's cultural competency not only in actual culture but actual governance systems of first nations people and also the trauma-informed method of investigation. There's a great deal of historical and contemporary trauma in first nations communities and with first nations individuals, and there are ways and means of working with that that allow people to express themselves and give them a sense of respect, if you will, for what people have gone through in the past and what they're going through now. Things are changing very rapidly, and I think the commission will be part of that change.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang.

You have two minutes, Ms. Michaud. Go ahead.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Webster and Ms. Basman, thank you for the important work you do with refugees. Thank you, as well, for your recommendations.

You talked about the importance of the commission being able to receive complaints about systemic issues within the organizations and being properly resourced to investigate them. You also said that the commission could refuse to look into a complaint or conduct a review if the complaint was brought forward by a third party. How do you think the bill should be amended?

[Kate Webster]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Michaud.

In our written brief we do provide a concise red line for how we would suggest approaching the question of third party complaints. We're happy to see that third parties can, under the current draft of the bill, bring complaints with the express written consent of an individual.

However, we would like to see the bill amended to explicitly allow the filing of complaints as they relate to systemic or policy issues. This could easily happen through changes to clause 52, which currently allows the commission to refuse to deal with a complaint if it's not from an individual. That is the sort of circumstance where the commission has the power to decline jurisdiction. An easy tweak there would allow organizations to bring those complaints.

I would note additionally that third parties are critical and are only really helpful in bringing these types of complaints if they are well informed. Part of that comes from the experience of their members, such as our organization, but also part of that comes from publication of information from the commission itself.

Right now there are limitations on the types of publications that are available. Certain reports are only published in summary, as opposed to the full report. We would like to see more transparency because that can inform further third party complaints going forward.

We would also like to see, in a similar vein, the commission having more powers of redress, not only in terms of actually enforcing recommendations, but also in being able to suspend removal or have interim measures available. This would allow a complaint to go forward to inform the commission and its activities without an individual being deported in the midst of that process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Madam.

We go now to Mr. Julian.

Please go ahead, sir, and bring us home in two minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for the very powerful and very wise testimony that I think will help us, as committee members, to work on the shortcomings of the bill, for sure, and improve the legislation so it's the best possible legislation.

As Madam Lahaie mentioned in the previous panel, we also have the problem of substantial under-resourcing. That is a major problem.

I had asked Ms. Basman and Ms. Webster about the CBSA side. I didn't really have the time to follow up with Mr. Bellegarde, so I'd like to follow up with him now.

On the resource side, as Ms. Lahaie testified, for complaints in Inuktitut-speaking communities in the north, for example, the commission does not have the resources to provide those supports in Inuktitut.

How important is it that this commission be adequately resourced? For example, when it comes to indigenous communities where there may be a language like Inuktitut where the investigator would be much better off having that language, how important is it to ensure indigenous representation within the new commission and support for indigenous languages with adequate resources?

[Dan Bellegarde]

I think it's critical. Again, it speaks to the question of accessibility, respect for the process and trust in the process.

In northern Saskatchewan there was something called a Cree court, where the judge addressed the defendants in Cree. The interpreter was there for the RCMP and for the defence lawyers. This really assisted the individual communities to have a trust in the system, so I think it's critical.

In Saskatchewan, northern Ontario and Alberta, Cree is one of the main ones, as well as Dene. We have others besides Inuktitut.

There are people in the communities who are working as justice officers or justice advocates when they have tribal councils, supporting them in the north, so I think the infrastructure is there. The question for the commission is how best to use that infrastructure to have a mutually agreeable way of dealing with public complaints so that the advocates, the complainants themselves and the commission, at the end of the day have a really solid relationship built on language, if you want to call it that.

Absolutely, we do need consideration. There are 68 first nations languages in the country. Not all of them are required, of course, but for those who need them, we're going to have to find a way to provide them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

That brings this panel to a close.

I would like to thank the witnesses.

You've been most helpful. I appreciate your time and your expertise. On behalf of the committee, I thank you.

To the members of the committee, I would remind you that we are trying to get in as many amendments as are reasonable by the end of day Tuesday. There may well be additional amendments that flow from our Tuesday meeting, but the more we can get and the sooner we can get them, the better we can get the context of what we are working with.

Thank you.

We are adjourned.