Public Safety Committee on Nov. 6th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 81 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, November 25, 2022, the committee continues consideration of Bill C-20, an act establishing the public complaints and review commission and amending certain acts and statutory instruments. Today the committee resumes clause-by-clause consideration.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the officials and members. Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to interpreters and cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone.

In order to prevent incidents and safeguard the hearing health of the interpreters, I invite participants to ensure that they speak into the microphone into which their headset is plugged and avoid manipulating the earbuds by placing them on the table away from the microphone when they are not in use.

All comments should be addressed through the chair.

I will now welcome the officials who are with us once again. Welcome back.

They are available for questions regarding the bill but will not deliver any opening statements.

With the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Philippe Tremblay, acting director, public complaints and external review division/recourse.

From the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Joanne Gibb, senior director, strategic operations and policy directorate. We also have Lesley McCoy, general counsel.

From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Randall Koops, director general, international border policy; Martin Leuchs, manager, border policy division; and Deidre Pollard-Bussey, director, policing policy.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Stéphane Drouin, director general, workplace responsibility branch, professional responsibility sector.

Thank you for joining us today. We are at new clause 96, but I believe Mr. Gaheer has a request for unanimous consent.

Go ahead, sir

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing before the committee again.

I would like to seek unanimous consent to reopen clauses 41 and 53. I will start with clause 41.

This is in relation to NDP-25. As it was carried at committee, the amendment modified clause 40 to require that a complaint incident include reasons for the withdrawal of a complaint to the PCRC and RCMP commissioner. As passed, it creates an imbalance in the complaint process, as this requirement was not added for the complaints related to the CBSA under subclause 41(1). We therefore ask for unanimous consent for the committee to revisit clause 41 to narrow the requirement carried out under clause 40 so as to ensure that complaints related to the RCMP and the CBSA are treated in the exact same way.

This can be very easily achieved by applying the language under NDP-25 to subclause 41(1), which would read as follows. We would basically withdraw subsection 33(2) from subclause 41(1) and it would basically read: “A complainant may withdraw a complaint made under section 33(2) at any time by sending a written notice and the reasons for the withdrawal to the Commission or the President.” That's being circulated right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Mr. Julian, do you want to speak before we ask for unanimous consent?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I'll just say that this is a consequence of the adoption of an NDP amendment, so I support this unanimous consent to clarify it. It makes the language similar in both sections.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm not going to get into a debate on this; it's unanimous consent. I just mentioned Peter because he put up his hand as soon as Mr. Gaheer spoke.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I just want to put this out there. This committee has had such goodwill and congeniality over the last few meetings that we'll be giving unanimous consent on this. We want to make sure we're all working well together.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

We're looking forward to proceeding today and getting through this, hopefully.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Go ahead, Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

I have just one more comment.

I guess it's just an example of what happens sometimes when you try to ram through legislation rather than taking your time to review it. You find these mistakes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Do we have unanimous consent for Mr. Gaheer's motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

(On clause 41)

We are back to clause 41.

Mr. Gaheer has spoken to this. Are we clear on the changes?

Is there any debate on these changes?

Are all in favour of the changes?

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 41 as amended agreed to)

We have one more UC request, as I understand it.

(On clause 53)

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

This is clause 53. This is in relation to BQ-14. This is presented as an amendment of concordance to BQ-13, which provides the PCRC a discretion, rather than a requirement, to refuse to deal with a complaint under the conditions set out in subclause 52(5) if the complaint could be better dealt with under another provincial or federal procedure.

This could create situations in which if the PCRC has already commenced an investigation and identifies that the issue being investigated would be better addressed by another procedure—for example, if human rights concerns arise over the course of their investigation—the commission would not have the ability to discontinue their own investigation. We don't believe that this was the Bloc's original intent when they introduced BQ-14.

To better align BQ-14 with what was proposed under BQ-13, the committee should provide the PCRC a discretion to discontinue an investigation into the complaint. A simple way of achieving this would be to add subclause 52(5) under subclause 53(1).

The change in language has been circulated. I can read it into the record if that's required, but it's been circulated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, sir.

We'll give the legislative clerk just a minute.

While he's doing that, did you want to make a quick comment?

We're not going to debate this, but please go ahead.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Can I ask a question of the officials in regard to this?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Sure. We'll quickly go into that as this is going on.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Has the department obviously identified this as being an issue that needs correcting? Would that be fair to assume?

[Martin Leuchs, Manager, Border Policy Division, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Yes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

The legislative clerk is clear on this. We're good.

Is there any further discussion?

Do we have unanimous consent to go ahead on this?

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 53 as amended agreed to)

Thank you, Mr. Gaheer. Thank you all.

We have new clause 96.1, which is NDP-61.

Mr. Julian, go ahead, if you please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

This was an amendment recommended by Breaking Barriers Together. New clause 96.1 ensures the following:

In any investigation under subsection (1), the RCMP shall disclose to the conduct authority and the member all evidence in paper or electronic form that is under its control and that may be relevant to the investigation.

I move NDP-61.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Is there any discussion?

Go ahead, Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I have a quick question for the RCMP.

Is it not a practice now that when you're dealing with an investigation, you disclose to the alleged accused in a complaint all the evidence that's available?

[Chief Superintendent Stéphane Drouin, Director General, Workplace Responsibility Branch, Professional Responsibility Sector, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Yes, that's correct. That's exactly how it proceeds now in the conduct process. There are disclosure requirements and all the information is disclosed to the subject member involved.