Public Safety Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You spoke about perception. Perception is based on the information provided to the public. Trust may or may not be established afterwards.

I'll focus on two key words, which are “transparency” and “accountability”. I didn't come up with these words. Your office referred to them in 2018. Today, we're talking about perception, and the information shared in connection with Mr. Bernardo's case.

Did the issues raised by your office in 2018 also concern inmate transfers and the review of the related decisions? Has anything changed between 2018 and 2023? If things haven't changed, what could be put in place to improve the agency's transparency?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Clearly, the issue persists.

Over the past two months, for example, I've continued to push for Canada to ratify the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. I want Canada to improve its structure by ensuring external oversight not only for the Correctional Service of Canada, but also for any detention facility in Canada. That's one possible measure.

In terms of the victim issue, I think that it isn't just a matter of perception. In Canada, when it comes to the rights of accused individuals and inmates, there seems to be all kinds of recourse mechanisms. I'm aware of that.

However, this isn't always the case for victims. I think that there's a great deal of work to do. In my opinion, the Criminal Code and criminal court procedure could be reviewed to address the simple fact that many so‑called victims' rights aren't really rights at all. There are no rights without recourse.

I might also add that the office of the federal ombudsperson for victims of crime is overseen by the Department of Justice. In my opinion, it should be governed by separate legislation and be independent. It should also have a budget similar to mine. Right now, I believe that the ombudsperson's budget is $1.2 million. Mine will be $7.5 million next year. As far as perceptions are concerned, the lack of parity in this area makes no sense.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Dr. Zinger, that's all the time we have.

We'll move on to Ms. Barron, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

First of all, I'm here covering for my colleague, MP Peter Julian. I want to express my condolences to the families and victims of Paul Bernardo, because I haven't had a chance yet to do so.

My first question is for you, Ms. Kelly.

In your opening statement, you talked about the importance of victims' rights in making decisions, ensuring communications with victims and taking an approach that uses compassion and respect for victims.

Can you please clarify how you followed through with the process of ensuring victims' rights in making decisions when transferring Paul Bernardo from maximum to medium security?

[Anne Kelly]

As part of the transfer process, we have to take into consideration whether the victims have submitted victim statements. Those are taken into consideration.

In the transfer at hand, we actually communicated with victims, and I spoke with one victim before we reviewed the case. After the case was reviewed, again, we communicated with victims, and I spoke with many of them to review the findings and recommendations with them. As a result of the review, a recommendation was made, as I said, that we establish a multidisciplinary committee, and we have done so. I mentioned the composition of the committee. So far, there have been two meetings.

We're going to listen to the victims. We're going to listen to what they need, and we're going to enhance our policies and practices in terms of information sharing.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

What I'm trying to understand is whether the victims and families—specifically, the families of the victims of Paul Bernardo—were notified of this transfer in a timely manner. What did that look like?

[Anne Kelly]

With regard to the way it works for transfers, let's say, from maximum to medium, in this case we are mandated to advise the victims. Normally, it's after the transfer occurs. In the case of a transfer to minimum security, we advise the victims prior to the transfer.

In this particular case, we advised the victims the morning of the transfer.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Do you feel that victims and families of victims finding out after the fact or on the morning of is following what you identified as ensuring compassion and respect for the families of victims? How does that align?

[Anne Kelly]

Again, in this case, we followed the legislation and the policies, but I think there was a recognition—and that was part of the review—that maybe more could have been done. That is why we are having the multidisciplinary committee, to discuss exactly those things.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Can you clarify the transition from maximum to medium security of Paul Bernardo? Does that mean there is an increased chance or likelihood now that the families of the victims will see him, after being shifted into medium security, being transferred into the community? What does that look like for future steps around ensuring justice for the victims, who Paul Bernardo so brutally...and the violence that he inflicted on them?

[Anne Kelly]

He committed absolutely horrific crimes.

The other thing I would say is that Paul Bernardo has spent 30 consecutive years in maximum security. He was transferred to medium security. At this point, there is absolutely no talk of going to a lower security level. He just got to medium security, and he remains there. I mentioned this during the press conference—so it's out there—that he remains high in terms of safety of the public. No inmate who is high on safety of the public can go to minimum.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you. I want to build off that a little bit.

We know that—I'm trying to remember the year—at William Head, there were two inmates who were convicted of violent crimes who, of course, escaped from minimum security and then murdered a local man in his home. This has come up in this committee before. Rightfully so, there are some concerns here around Paul Bernardo being shifted from maximum security to minimum security, when we see incidents of people escaping and inflicting further harm. I'm wondering—

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry, but was that a slip-up? He was transferred—correct me if I'm wrong—from maximum to medium, not from maximum to minimum. You said “minimum” twice. I just want to make sure that was a mix-up.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

That was a miss. Thank you very much for clarifying. I would have been correcting that after the fact, so thank you for clarifying now.

Can you please share with us what you would say to victims of families and communities that are concerned about what this means for moving forward and ensuring justice for these families?

[Anne Kelly]

Again, with the fact that he is in medium security, as I mentioned, in terms of perimeter control, it's the same as maximum security. He spent 30 years in a maximum-security prison. He not so long ago got to medium security, so there is more work to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

Mr. Shipley, please, you have five minutes.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

First of all, thank you to all the witnesses for being here today. I'll start with Ms. Kelly.

In 2018, the Parole Board of Canada found that Bernardo was at a high risk for violence against a domestic partner, and that he was callous, glib, grandiose, cunning, deceptive, manipulative and a liar.

In 2021, the Parole Board of Canada found that Bernardo displays psychopathic traits, such as arrogance, entitlement and lack of empathy”, which they found to be not treatable. The Crown psychiatrist for Bernardo's dangerous offender designation found evidence of paraphilia, narcissistic personality disorder, alcohol misuse and psychopathy.

Patrick LeSage, Bernardo's trial judge, stated that Bernardo is “a dangerous offender” and “a sexually sadistic psychopath” whose likelihood of “being treated is remote in the extreme”.

Is it your position that this man belongs in a medium-security prison?

[Anne Kelly]

Again, our job is to assign a security classification to each inmate and to review it at regular intervals, which we have done in this case, and Bernardo came out as medium. Once that's determined, we have to ensure they are transferred to an institution that corresponds to their security level.

The fact that he's at medium does not negate the fact that he's also a psychopath and the other things that you mentioned. Mr. Bernardo can be managed in a medium-security environment.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Mr. Zinger, I'll now turn to you.

The CSC review report states that the security reclassification protocol for Bernardo was applied 14 times between 1999 and 2022, always with a recommendation of medium, but was overridden to maximum every time, except this one. What's shocking is that Bernardo was denied a transfer and a reclassification to medium security four months before it was finally approved.

The report also states that Bernardo suddenly had a change of heart. In fact, the report seems to state that your office's meeting with Bernardo was the catalyst for Bernardo's willingness to integrate.

Who from your office met with Bernardo, and what was the nature of that activity?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Thank you for the question.

As you mentioned, Mr. Bernardo was denied reclassification several times. We never investigated that, and we never made any recommendation with respect to having him transferred to medium.

How it actually happened was, primarily, that we got involved quite late in the process because Correctional Service of Canada did not meet its policy requirement to process a request within a certain time frame, which was 60 days for a request. We were involved because of that allegation of non-compliance with policy in terms of processing a request.

We met with the—

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Zinger.

I too have only five minutes, and I have only about a minute left, so thank you. I apologize for interrupting.

Ms. Kelly, I'll go back to you for one last quick question.

While incarcerated, Bernardo has been an instigator in nine different incidents including possession of an unauthorized item and possession of contraband. His parole hearings have also confirmed that he shows no remorse for his crimes. Why didn't his track record behind bars and lack of remorse for his crimes play a larger role in his revised security classification?

[Anne Kelly]

Again, the security classification is a process. We assess a number of factors. We apply an actuarial tool. The final assessment is a combination of both, so definitely what you mentioned was taken into consideration, but the final assessment was that this particular offender could be managed in a medium-security institution.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Very quickly, because I have very limited time, you mentioned in your previous discussion that, at this point in time, there are no talks to have Bernardo moved from medium to minimum. Is that not a potential now for the future?

[Anne Kelly]

I can't speak for the future. What I can say is that, as I said, he has spent 30 years in maximum. He has been in medium now for about a year. He is still a high risk to the safety of the public, so certainly minimum is not on the radar.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Kelly.

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

Now we'll move to Ms. O'Connell.

Go ahead, please.