Evidence of meeting #85 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transfer.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald
Thank you, Ms. Kelly.
We'll move on to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes, please.
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Chair.
I'm wondering if you can help me understand. There have been many discussions so far in this meeting about Paul Bernardo having been in maximum security for 30 years. You discussed the factors that are considered in that transfer from maximum to medium, including institutional adjustment, the risk that he could escape and the risk to the public if he did escape.
The rationale I've heard so far is around the fact that he has apparently shown some signs of institutional adjustment. Is it not a combination of factors that is looked at? Why would one factor supersede the remainder, including the known risks if he were to escape or the risk to others in medium security alongside him?
It seems like maybe attention was being paid to one factor over the others. Can you speak to that?
12:20 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Actually, all three have to be considered. It's an assessment, and it's in the regulations that we have to assess the three areas, which are institutional adjustment, escape risk and risk to the safety of the public.
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Okay, maybe I could just clarify quickly.
For somebody who is on the outside—I'm not on the inside of this—we hear reports that a psychologist's report concluded that Paul Bernardo participated in “offence-related programming but continues to exhibit offence-related problematic attitudes and behaviours”, that he's had “several responsivity issues” and warned that improvements remained “intermittent”.
I don't know about you, but I have serious concerns when I see reports that Paul Bernardo has been displaying the same behaviours as he previously had, that his remorse is not there and that he has a high risk of—I can't think of the word right now—doing the same sorts of things he had done before. I am just worried.
How is it possible that he has been moved from maximum to medium under the circumstances of the information that we have, which is publicly available, and the concerns surrounding this particular person?
12:20 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
In the regulations, it specifies what you have to be to be classified as maximum, medium or minimum. For maximum, you have to be high on institutional adjustment or high on escape risk and risk to the safety of the public. It has to be both.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald
Time's up. Thank you.
We'll move on to Mr. Shipley now for five minutes.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you, Chair.
There have been a few questions today about the differences between a maximum-security prison and a medium-security prison.
Earlier today, Ms. Kelly, you mentioned that there are more opportunities for offenders in medium. I make no apology for my next statement. I expect and want Paul Bernardo to have zero opportunities.
You also mentioned that he was incarcerated in a maximum penitentiary for 30 years and he was integrated, which was part of the reason that lead to his getting classified to medium. He was only integrated for four months. How could there possibly be such a change of heart in just four months of integration, after 30 years in maximum?
12:20 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Yes, he was 30 years in maximum, but when we say that, in July 2022, he was fully integrated.... In the report, you will see that this inmate's integration was part of a longer-term strategy that involved many steps over several years. He started integrating with smaller groups at a time, and he was monitored throughout that time. In July 2022, he was fully integrated, and that is the reason that, at that point months later, his security classification was reviewed and he was classified as medium.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you for that answer. You mentioned that he was monitored during that time. I hope this horrendous criminal has been monitored for his entire 30 years.
Ms. Kelly, in our last meeting, Jeff Wilkins, the head of the corrections union, raised serious concerns about the routine overriding and downgrading of security classifications by upper management at Corrections Canada. He stated that he has no issues when a security classification is upgraded, but that, when it is downgraded, it can lead to serious public safety concerns. We heard that this practice contributed to two inmates' escaping and brutally murdering a 60-year-old man in British Columbia.
How many offenders' security classifications were overwritten to a lower security classification last year?
12:25 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
There are more overrides to medium than to minimum. Minimum is around 9%, but we did some research. The custody rating—
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
My question is not about your research. My question is about how many offenders' security classifications were overwritten to a lower security classification last year. Do you have that information today?
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Will you commit to this committee that you will be able to provide that and table that over the next little bit?
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you for that. That would be very interesting information to receive.
Ms. Kelly, your department emailed the minister's office multiple times about the Bernardo transfer. Given that you followed the process put in place by the Minister of Public Safety, did you have any reason to believe that the minister was unaware of the transfer?
12:25 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
We followed the long-standing process. We notified and.... I am not in the minister's office. Like I said, we followed the long-standing process.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
That process is long-standing, and I'm sure you've had many chats with the minister and his staff over that period. Did you not find it odd that Minister Mendicino did not bring up the transfer at all between February 27, when the assistant commissioner gave the heads-up to the minister's office, and May 29, when the transfer occurred? That's almost three months.
12:25 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
First of all, I have to go back to see if I had any meetings. Normally, if we do have meetings, it's on very specific topics.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
If you were having any discussions with the minister or his staff, this was very high profile. The minister stated on the day of the transfer that he was shocked and dismayed that this had taken place, so I'm surprised that there was no discussion or that you weren't surprised that nothing was being brought up to you. This was probably one of the most high-profile transfers.
You mentioned 41 years. That's a long career, and thank you for that, but this must be one of the largest high-profile transfers ever to take place, and there were no direct discussions between you and the minister regarding it. Is that correct?
12:25 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Again, we followed the long-standing process, but afterwards, the former minister said that he wanted to be directly and formally advised, so we put in place a process to do so.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald
Thank you, Ms. Kelly.
Thank you, Mr. Shipley.
We will now move to Mr. McKinnon for five minutes.
Go ahead, please.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I was about to ask you earlier, Commissioner Kelly, about program access under medium security. Why is that important for the administration of the prisoner?
12:25 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
It's because our programs are world-renowned and research-based, and they do reduce recidivism. However, that doesn't mean they work in the same way for every offender. I think the president of UCCO-SACC-CSN said that they didn't want idle hands. We want offenders to be participating in either education, programs, employment or constructive leisure. That's very important for the management of the institutions. Research has shown that programs do reduce recidivism.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
I think reducing recidivism is important, but certainly all of us hope that he never sees the light of day. It seems to me that recidivism is not our major concern here.
Is access to better programs seen as a benefit to the inmate, or is the value really in terms of helping them to be managed within the prison environment?
12:30 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
It's about being managed.
In programs you learn many things. Even those who may never be released from an institution still learn valuable skills in programs, and you actually see that in their behaviour in the institution. That certainly helps to protect staff and to ensure the safety of staff and of other inmates as well.